De Lorenzo: It's all over but the hand-wringing for Pontiac

[Croc]

Even the Lambdas, as much as I like them, are badge jobs. So are the GMT-900s.

Can't agree with the lambdas. They each have a very distinct personality.

[Lamar]

Even the Lambdas, as much as I like them, are badge jobs. So are the GMT-900s.

Acadia and Outlook, maybe. Enclave is different enough, IMO. The Traverse will be as well.

You want badge jobs? Land Cruiser/LX570.

[The O.C.]

Acadia and Outlook, maybe. Enclave is different enough, IMO. The Traverse will be as well.

You want badge jobs? Land Cruiser/LX570.

All the Lambdas basically share their greenhouses and body panels from the A- to the D-pillars. Enclave and Traverse share an uptick in the rear side windows that Acadia and Outlook don't.

Interiors are differentiated but share all major componentry.....seats....etc.

Powertrains are shared across the board (with the exception of single-exhaust versions of the 3.6L on the Outlook and Traverse.)

According to GM, they even all share the same suspension tuning (Buick included.)

I'll compromise and say that they are somewhere between badge engineering and true shared architecture. Even the W-bodies, as old as they are, are less badge-engineered than the Lambdas.

(I'm not criticizing the Lambdas necessarily.....just pointing it out.)

Edited May 13, 2008 by The O.C.

[Croc]

All the Lambdas basically share their greenhouses and body panels from the A- to the D-pillars. Enclave and Traverse share an uptick in the rear side windows that Acadia and Outlook don't.

Interiors are differentiated but share all major componentry.....seats....etc.

Powertrains are shared across the board (with the exception of single-exhaust versions of the 3.6L on the Outlook and Traverse.)

According to GM, they even all share the same suspension tuning (Buick included.)

I'll compromise and say that they are somewhere between badge engineering and true shared architecture. Even the W-bodies, as old as they are, are less badge-engineered than the Lambdas.

(I'm not criticizing the Lambdas necessarily.....just pointing it out.)

I know what you're saying, but the lambdas are far more differentiated than the GMT-360s, and those were pretty differentiated IMO, sharing no exterior sheetmetal save the roofs. The lambdas also share very little sheetmetal (if any), and while the Outlook/Acadia share a bit too much of their interior components for my liking, the Buick is fairly unique inside.

GM definitely did more than change out the grilles on these. Traverse is also longer than the other 3. As for the Ws, well...ignoring the Century/Regal badge engineering, the Grand Prix and Intrigue were pretty similar-looking from the outside, especially when the comparison involved the grille-less GP SE.

[hyperv6]

The problem right now is not GM is giving the platforms their own look. The problem is now GM that GM is giving too may models of the same platform.

Saturn really did not need a large Crossover. Buick I am ok and Chevy I am ok.

The GMC is very nice looking but I think they should just keep them to trucks since Buick already offers this platform in the same dealership. I think those who did buy a Saturn would just buy the Chevy and the GMC would buy the Buick.

If want divisions to be different don't over do it by making a version for every dealer. Even worse to use the same platform more than onece in a BPG dealer.

GM would be best suited to offer no more than 2-3 of any platform in any market. Spread them out over the divison an taylor them to that division. Also use different drivetrains in the same platforms in that market.

Say like using a more standard Ecotech in the Chevy and a Saab base Turbo Eco. in a Saturn. Then apply a Saab AWD in the future Pontiac G6.

GM has a big box of good product and they could do a little better job of mixing it up and give us combos not seen in many other GM cars.

[Camino LS6]

The problem right now is not GM is giving the platforms their own look. The problem is now GM that GM is giving too may models of the same platform.

Saturn really did not need a large Crossover. Buick I am ok and Chevy I am ok.

The GMC is very nice looking but I think they should just keep them to trucks since Buick already offers this platform in the same dealership. I think those who did buy a Saturn would just buy the Chevy and the GMC would buy the Buick.

If want divisions to be different don't over do it by making a version for every dealer. Even worse to use the same platform more than onece in a BPG dealer.

GM would be best suited to offer no more than 2-3 of any platform in any market. Spread them out over the divison an taylor them to that division. Also use different drivetrains in the same platforms in that market.

Say like using a more standard Ecotech in the Chevy and a Saab base Turbo Eco. in a Saturn. Then apply a Saab AWD in the future Pontiac G6.

GM has a big box of good product and they could do a little better job of mixing it up and give us combos not seen in many other GM cars.

Agreed.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Even the Lambdas, as much as I like them, are badge jobs. So are the GMT-900s.

I don't think so...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The problem right now is not GM is giving the platforms their own look. The problem is now GM that GM is giving too may models of the same platform.

Saturn really did not need a large Crossover. Buick I am ok and Chevy I am ok.

The GMC is very nice looking but I think they should just keep them to trucks since Buick already offers this platform in the same dealership. I think those who did buy a Saturn would just buy the Chevy and the GMC would buy the Buick.

If want divisions to be different don't over do it by making a version for every dealer. Even worse to use the same platform more than onece in a BPG dealer.

GM would be best suited to offer no more than 2-3 of any platform in any market. Spread them out over the divison an taylor them to that division. Also use different drivetrains in the same platforms in that market.

Say like using a more standard Ecotech in the Chevy and a Saab base Turbo Eco. in a Saturn. Then apply a Saab AWD in the future Pontiac G6.

GM has a big box of good product and they could do a little better job of mixing it up and give us combos not seen in many other GM cars.

That's why GME COULD be such an asset...

They COULD bring over cars from Europe and have a distinct line up. But instead, the poweres that be would rather compete with Pontiac over the same damn market niches that Chevrolet and Buick are already in.

Pure ignorance and squandering of resources. If GM wants to 'globalize, then let them do it. But offer ALL of the flavors of the world through the variety of divisions they have. GM has enough divisions to satisfy EVERY buyer and that is why I always preach 'brand equity' and 'ability'

Edited May 13, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[enzl]

That's why GME COULD be such an asset...

They COULD bring over cars from Europe and have a distinct line up. But instead, the poweres that be would rather compete with Pontiac over the same damn market niches that Chevrolet and Buick are already in.

Pure ignorance and squandering of resources. If GM wants to 'globalize, then let them do it. But offer ALL of the flavors of the world through the variety of divisions they have. GM has enough divisions to satisfy EVERY buyer and that is why I always preach 'brand equity' and 'ability'

Wow. I 100% agree.

I think an Astra Twintop, a Holden Sportwagon or Corsa VXR would make fantastic, unique and sporty Pontiacs that have no internal competition.

[Camino LS6]

I think I love this thread!

[gm4life]

Oh it never fails to get my blood pressure up... VERY exciting... Just nix the Saturn Outlook right now they never should have gotten it, Chevy should have got it in the first place.

[Croc]

Oh it never fails to get my blood pressure up... VERY exciting... Just nix the Saturn Outlook right now they never should have gotten it, Chevy should have got it in the first place.

No, Chevy is getting the Traverse, and it's a better vehicle for the wait. The Outlook as a Chevrolet would not have sold well as it is the most bland design out of GM in the last couple years. Traverse also gets more cargo room, a minor shortcoming of the current crop of lambdas.

[BigPontiac]

Pontiac Song for your listening pleasure...

[regfootball]

Good example...the W-body GP, Intrigue, Impala & Regal, as lame as they

were in many ways *cough*FWD*cough-cough!* they had their own 100%

distinct looks to a larger degree than most unrelated modern cars.

grand prix, lacrosse, impala, all are quite different. actually.

[Robert Hall]

grand prix, lacrosse, impala, all are quite different. actually.

Different styling and interior trim, but still the same, stale meat underneath...4spd automatics and dated pushrod V6s...

[balthazar]

Why don't you just get a t-shirt made, molty?

[Robert Hall]

Why don't you just get a t-shirt made, molty?

Yeah, I guess I get repetitive harping about GM's mediocrities...

[Sixty8panther]

I hate W-bodys but I have no problem with my PUSHROD V8 powered, 4-speed shifted RWD BOF cars!

[hyperv6]

grand prix, lacrosse, impala, all are quite different. actually.

I drove a Impala, Lacrosse and GP all back to back and have to say I don't think many in the main steam public would know they were all sisters under the skin.

The Buick was a shock as I own a 04 GP and the Rode better, had a better ride, much quieter and had a much better interior. Add into that the 3.6 had as much power as my 3800 SC and did not sound like a dish washer. I know it is a old car in platform terms but Buick did a great job. Right now it is a steal at the marked down prices it is going at.

The delay and redesign of the Lacrosse that Lutz required shows.

If they can do this on a old platform just think what they will do with the new Invicta.

Edited May 14, 2008 by hyperv6

[VenSeattle]

And, as for w-body dimensions... The LaCrosse is right on par with the 2008 Honda Accord. There's less than 4 inches between them and the LaCrosse matches or beats several Accord measurements.

I'm not arguing powertrain, options, etc... I'm strictly talking about packaging. People here have complained for YEARS about the LaCrosse being "cramped" and "uncomfortable" in proportion to its exterior dimensions.

I'm 6'2" and have been in the LaCrosse dozens of times and can not see how the interior dimensions are out of place with competitors. If you add in the suspension improvements for the Super, the LaCrosse is hard to beat.

Honda Accord V6

Exterior (inches)
Length              194.3 
Height               58.1 
Width                72.7 
Wheelbase           110.2

Interior (inches)
Front Headroom       39.0 
Rear Headroom        37.2 
Front Legroom        42.5 
Rear Legroom         37.2 
Front Shoulder Room  58.2 
Rear Shoulder Room   56.4 
Front Hip Room       56.6 
Rear Hip Room        54.3 
Cargo Volume         14 cu ft 
Passenger Volume    101 cu ft 

Approx curb weight - 3567 lbs

Buick LaCrosse V6

Exterior (inches)
Length              198.1 
Height               57.4 
Width                73.0 
Wheelbase           110.5

Interior (inches)
Front Headroom       39.4 
Rear Headroom        37.2 
Front Legroom        42.3 
Rear Legroom         37.6 
Front Shoulder Room  57.2 
Rear Shoulder Room   57.0 
Front Hip Room       55.3 
Rear Hip Room        54.6 
Cargo Volume         16.0 cu ft 
Passenger Volume     99.4 cu ft 

Approx curb weight - 3,568 lbs.

[Croc]

Yeah, I guess I get repetitive harping about GM's mediocrities...

GM gets repetitive pushing mediocrity on the marketplace.

[The O.C.]

And, as for w-body dimensions... The LaCrosse is right on par with the 2008 Honda Accord. There's less than 4 inches between them and the LaCrosse matches or beats several Accord measurements.

I'm not arguing powertrain, options, etc... I'm strictly talking about packaging. People here have complained for YEARS about the LaCrosse being "cramped" and "uncomfortable" in proportion to its exterior dimensions.

I'm 6'2" and have been in the LaCrosse dozens of times and can not see how the interior dimensions are out of place with competitors. If you add in the suspension improvements for the Super, the LaCrosse is hard to beat.

Calling the W-bodies "cramped" (in the back seat) really has to do with things that aren't necessarily spelled out in the dimensions chart. Such as....foot room.....you can't slide your feet underneath the rear of the front seats in a W-body like you can in most other cars.....this forces you to place your feet squarly on the floorboard of the rear seat...as opposed to being able to slide them slightly forward for a more natural position. Also, it's about the support of the lower cushion of the rear seat and whether it forces you into a "knees up" sitting position. Finally, I've noticed that in the W-body, there is scant room between the cutout of the lower portion of the rear door and the footwells....making pulling your feet up out of the footwell to exit the rear of the car more difficult than it could be.

Simply poor packaging....not necessarily a factor of sizes on a dimension chart.

[gm4life]

OC makes a good point.

[The O.C.]

OC makes a good point.

Thanks....but I mean.....seriously.....

When I was at our little Inland Empire Auto Show a couple weeks' ago, I made sure to again compare and contrast Impala and Malibu directly......and the Malibu's rear seat (lack of armrest notwithstanding) was SO MUCH more accomodating than the Impalas, it's not even funny!

Plus, packaging aside, another interesting observation was......believe it or not.....the IMPALA has a MUCH higher level of fit inside....especially regarding the dash and door panels. While I like the STYLE of the Malibu dash and instrument cluster, the Impala's setup lacks all the ungainly cutlines that the Malibu's center stack suffers from. Also, the door panels/door armrests in the Impala are way more substantial. Overall, the Impala, while not nearly as "stylish" looks much better assembled.

[RBB]

Plus, packaging aside, another interesting observation was......believe it or not.....the IMPALA has a MUCH higher level of fit inside....especially regarding the dash and door panels. While I like the STYLE of the Malibu dash and instrument cluster, the Impala's setup lacks all the ungainly cutlines that the Malibu's center stack suffers from. Also, the door panels/door armrests in the Impala are way more substantial. Overall, the Impala, while not nearly as "stylish" looks much better assembled.

Seriously? I've not yet been in the new Malibu, but I've been in a couple of Impalas. The materials used (including a nasty misaligned mold seam that ran prominently across the dash in an Impala SS) and fit and finished both seemed substandard to me. The door panels were thinly padded cheap plastic - it honestly felt like a thickly textured plastic tarp covering 1/8" of foam over the door panel.

Without putting hands on, the Malibu interiors I've seen in pictures (both reviews and dealer inventory pics) seem to use much better quality materials and and are better designed, even allowing for the cutlines.

-RBB

[regfootball]

Thanks....but I mean.....seriously.....

When I was at our little Inland Empire Auto Show a couple weeks' ago, I made sure to again compare and contrast Impala and Malibu directly......and the Malibu's rear seat (lack of armrest notwithstanding) was SO MUCH more accomodating than the Impalas, it's not even funny!

Plus, packaging aside, another interesting observation was......believe it or not.....the IMPALA has a MUCH higher level of fit inside....especially regarding the dash and door panels. While I like the STYLE of the Malibu dash and instrument cluster, the Impala's setup lacks all the ungainly cutlines that the Malibu's center stack suffers from. Also, the door panels/door armrests in the Impala are way more substantial. Overall, the Impala, while not nearly as "stylish" looks much better assembled.

the impala's plastics are truly heinous though. and the gauges and controls look uber cheap and the seats are flat and yucky. when the SS v8 came out i test drove one and was apalled at how cheap the interior felt. not only that, the car did nothing to connect with the driver in terms of controls or gauges, and the seats were couches. worst, neither the ride or handling was sporty and the 4 speed auto was an anachronism.

what the malibu lacks in interior spoils and execution, it has the contrasting color scheme, interesting shapes, and chrome dipped features that make it seem better than they actually crafted it. the design at least makes up for half assed execution.....the impala may have nice panel gaps and such, but the design overall is lacking the same interest.

[Robert Hall]

the impala's plastics are truly heinous though. and the gauges and controls look uber cheap and the seats are flat and yucky. when the SS v8 came out i test drove one and was apalled at how cheap the interior felt. not only that, the car did nothing to connect with the driver in terms of controls or gauges, and the seats were couches. worst, neither the ride or handling was sporty and the 4 speed auto was an anachronism.

what the malibu lacks in interior spoils and execution, it has the contrasting color scheme, interesting shapes, and chrome dipped features that make it seem better than they actually crafted it. the design at least makes up for half assed execution.....the impala may have nice panel gaps and such, but the design overall is lacking the same interest.

For an Avis car, though, the Impala is adequate...not something I'd buy, but it makes an ok rental.

[gm4life]

I have been in both the Impala and Malibu when my brother went to buy a new Malibu LTZ in late December 07 he got an Impala LTZ instead. By far the Malibu had a nicer interior although the Impala felt slightly bigger. Driving wise I enjoyed the SS and alot and loved the dash and silver trim but when compared to the new 'Bu it feel short.

[balthazar]

>>"For an Avis car, though, the Impala is adequate..."<<

Perfect; this can be the other side of your new t-shirt, molty!

[CARBIZ]

Well, the GM gods must be listening. I just spent the day at a training seminar, pouring over the Malibu, Impala, Yaris, Corolla, Cobalt and the new Aveo 5.

1. The Cobalt interior is, well, to put it gracefully: crap.

2. The Yaris is a POS. I didn't like anything about that car. It makes the OLD Aveo look good. You want to talk about hard plastics and crappy controls???!!!

3. The refresh of the new Aveo is outstanding, the refinements to the drive train superb. The Fit and Versa should be afraid.

4. I still find myself strongly liking the Impala. The interior doesn't try as hard as the Malibu's does, which is a good thing.

5. 5 not so small salespeople crammed into the Impala, then sat in the Malibu. There is definitely more room in the back of the Impala.

6. I get OC's gripes about the rear foot room in the Impala, but with proper adjusting the seats are quite comfy - and I'm 6'2".

7. The Cobalt has a lot of things to like about it, but why wouldn't GM spend another $1,000 on the seat fabrics and dash trim?

GM is getting more and more things right, IMO. The Cobalt is a vehicle that people will like very much after they've lived with. Unfortunately, first impressions when you open the door are rather, er, disappointing. The opposite is true with the new Corolla. With the LE, the climate control, seats and other features are nice, although hard plastic does abound and our tester had a broken glove box and the driver's seat height adjustment gave way, causing the seat to rock back and forth like a rocking chair. Does this mean we can't sell the Cobalt? No. It just makes our jobs harder in having to point out the Cobalt's 'wins' and hope the prospect retains enough info by the time they visit the Toyota store! Why does GM spend their money on speed sensitive wipers, automatic headlights, 'quiet steel', gas shocks under the hood and in the trunk, yet cheap out on the interior? I mean, what committee approved that cloth and trim? Were they high at the time? And why haven't they all been fired? It's been 3 years to put the bong down!

GM-DAT is definitely getting with the picture. The new Aveo will be a smash, I predict. I want to put a Yaris in our show room to show how much it sucks and blows at the same time next to the '09 Aveo. A 100,000 mile timing belt? Take that, Honda!

The fact that both Toyota and Honda are busting their asses to come out with their versions of OnStar in the next 2 years tells me that GM has hit a gold mine with their 10 year jump. Blue tooth, UBS ports...well, the list is endless. Someone has awaken, finally.

[enzl]

Well, the GM gods must be listening. I just spent the day at a training seminar, pouring over the Malibu, Impala, Yaris, Corolla, Cobalt and the new Aveo 5.

1. The Cobalt interior is, well, to put it gracefully: crap.

2. The Yaris is a POS. I didn't like anything about that car. It makes the OLD Aveo look good. You want to talk about hard plastics and crappy controls???!!!

3. The refresh of the new Aveo is outstanding, the refinements to the drive train superb. The Fit and Versa should be afraid.

4. I still find myself strongly liking the Impala. The interior doesn't try as hard as the Malibu's does, which is a good thing.

5. 5 not so small salespeople crammed into the Impala, then sat in the Malibu. There is definitely more room in the back of the Impala.

6. I get OC's gripes about the rear foot room in the Impala, but with proper adjusting the seats are quite comfy - and I'm 6'2".

7. The Cobalt has a lot of things to like about it, but why wouldn't GM spend another $1,000 on the seat fabrics and dash trim?

GM is getting more and more things right, IMO. The Cobalt is a vehicle that people will like very much after they've lived with. Unfortunately, first impressions when you open the door are rather, er, disappointing. The opposite is true with the new Corolla. With the LE, the climate control, seats and other features are nice, although hard plastic does abound and our tester had a broken glove box and the driver's seat height adjustment gave way, causing the seat to rock back and forth like a rocking chair. Does this mean we can't sell the Cobalt? No. It just makes our jobs harder in having to point out the Cobalt's 'wins' and hope the prospect retains enough info by the time they visit the Toyota store! Why does GM spend their money on speed sensitive wipers, automatic headlights, 'quiet steel', gas shocks under the hood and in the trunk, yet cheap out on the interior? I mean, what committee approved that cloth and trim? Were they high at the time? And why haven't they all been fired? It's been 3 years to put the bong down!

GM-DAT is definitely getting with the picture. The new Aveo will be a smash, I predict. I want to put a Yaris in our show room to show how much it sucks and blows at the same time next to the '09 Aveo. A 100,000 mile timing belt? Take that, Honda!

The fact that both Toyota and Honda are busting their asses to come out with their versions of OnStar in the next 2 years tells me that GM has hit a gold mine with their 10 year jump. Blue tooth, UBS ports...well, the list is endless. Someone has awaken, finally.

What bothers me about the Cobalt is that it wouldn't take $1,000. And while you're spot on with the Yaris, I still believe the Fit wastes the Aveo...and the buzz is pretty good for the Kia Soul of all things, believe it or not....

I think you've hit on GM's central issue: an apparent case of ADD. It seems to strike fewer products nowadays, but it's still there.

[The O.C.]

the impala may have nice panel gaps and such, but the design overall is lacking the same interest.

Oh agreed.....I just meant that it looks put together better.

Another thing....take a close look at the Traverse's interior.....(I was inside one at the IE auto show).....in styling it mimics the Malibu's interior....but the fits and finishes are far greater. The Traverse, of course, shares it's interior hard points and switchgear with the other Lambdas.....which are damn near class-leading. The center stack, in particular, is finished alot better than Malibus....lacking the excessive cutlines and contrasting materials that Malibu suffers from.

[The O.C.]

What bothers me about the Cobalt is that it wouldn't take $1,000. And while you're spot on with the Yaris, I still believe the Fit wastes the Aveo...and the buzz is pretty good for the Kia Soul of all things, believe it or not....

I think you've hit on GM's central issue: an apparent case of ADD. It seems to strike fewer products nowadays, but it's still there.

And compare and contrast the Cobalt interior with the Astra! I get it that the Astra's center stack is confusing, but lord the materials and fits seem so much better!

I don't think the Yaris is that bad inside......I still think it's better than the Cobalt. Although I HATE the center-mounted instruments.....

[turbo200]

And compare and contrast the Cobalt interior with the Astra! I get it that the Astra's center stack is confusing, but lord the materials and fits seem so much better!

I don't think the Yaris is that bad inside......I still think it's better than the Cobalt. Although I HATE the center-mounted instruments.....

it's the basic essence of the interior that makes cobalt seem pitifully ill-concieved in comparison. astra's basic design is professional, the colors are smart, it looks sporty and high end, because of contrasting colors that are each deep and rich. the silver may be painted plastic but at least it's the right shade of color and contrasts incredibly well with the dark ebony, at least in the XR i sat in. then you proceed to the areas you touch everyday. the turn stalks operate with finesse and are superbly weighted. the buttons on the center stack feel firmly in place, they don't feel as though they're about to come off or are flimsy like os many GM vehicles I've found. and they don't look like design rejects, like seemingly all of GM's old climate controls/black tie radios. moving on to the armrest which seems to be better put together and made with nicer materials than trucks like Tahoe, add in the superior door panel materials and the material that covers the top of the dash which is one of the best I've found in a GM vehicle, and you know this is no normal American made GM. the seats are phenomonal, look nice, and have a high quality expensive substance.

these are minute differences that ultimately added $500 to the cost of the interior, if that. yet, the bottom line is Astra feels like an aspirational car, not a car most people would consider cheap. the astra was one I went to look at because I'm going to be getting a new car this summer, but there's no sunroff on the three door?? that's a huge deal breaker for me. the three door is a great looking, edgy sports car, only one or two angles and the lower foglamps area that I don't like the details, other than that the design is great.

[AAS]

...

these are minute differences that ultimately added $500 to the cost of the interior, if that. yet, the bottom line is Astra feels like an aspirational car, not a car most people would consider cheap. the astra was one I went to look at because I'm going to be getting a new car this summer, but there's no sunroff on the three door?? that's a huge deal breaker for me. the three door is a great looking, edgy sports car, only one or two angles and the lower foglamps area that I don't like the details, other than that the design is great.

I was very close on selling myself on the 5-door. I agree with you about the looks, inside and out. I don't mind the (lack of) performance but the more I researched the car the more I found that, while the EPA mpg ratings are good, fuel economy drops off pretty fast at speeds above 65mph (from 32 to 22 mpg hwy). Even this wouldn't be a problem, except I'll be taking the car to New Mexico where, aside from being at altitude (~7,200 ft), highway speeds can be in the 70's. Have you researched fuel economy and seen the same?

[The O.C.]

it's the basic essence of the interior that makes cobalt seem pitifully ill-concieved in comparison. astra's basic design is professional, the colors are smart, it looks sporty and high end, because of contrasting colors that are each deep and rich. the silver may be painted plastic but at least it's the right shade of color and contrasts incredibly well with the dark ebony, at least in the XR i sat in. then you proceed to the areas you touch everyday. the turn stalks operate with finesse and are superbly weighted. the buttons on the center stack feel firmly in place, they don't feel as though they're about to come off or are flimsy like os many GM vehicles I've found. and they don't look like design rejects, like seemingly all of GM's old climate controls/black tie radios. moving on to the armrest which seems to be better put together and made with nicer materials than trucks like Tahoe, add in the superior door panel materials and the material that covers the top of the dash which is one of the best I've found in a GM vehicle, and you know this is no normal American made GM. the seats are phenomonal, look nice, and have a high quality expensive substance.

these are minute differences that ultimately added $500 to the cost of the interior, if that. yet, the bottom line is Astra feels like an aspirational car, not a car most people would consider cheap. the astra was one I went to look at because I'm going to be getting a new car this summer, but there's no sunroff on the three door?? that's a huge deal breaker for me. the three door is a great looking, edgy sports car, only one or two angles and the lower foglamps area that I don't like the details, other than that the design is great.

Yeah....no sunroof.....on the really sporty XR 3-door.....once again, GM at it's bone-headed best......and ur right....it would be a deal breaker for me too.

Even CARBIZ said the Cobalt interior is crap.....and in my opinion, that's being nice. GM simply doesn't know how to sweat the details. I really do think their executives live in a Detroit-based vacuum.

How they managed to make the CTS so nice is beyond me......

[CARBIZ]

And compare and contrast the Cobalt interior with the Astra! I get it that the Astra's center stack is confusing, but lord the materials and fits seem so much better!

I don't think the Yaris is that bad inside......I still think it's better than the Cobalt. Although I HATE the center-mounted instruments.....

Okay, now I know you are smoking. I want the name of your dealer. Your ganga is better than any I can get my hands on. PUHLEASE. I just spent the day with the new Yaris and I drive Cobalts almost every day. No way, no how is the Yaris anywhere close to the Cobalt. It's dash scream Tonka (especially the big cheesy triad of H-VAC controls in the center stack) and the material on the seats was lifted out of a '91 Caravan. I have conceded the Cobalt has lost ground to the Corolla, but no way to the Yaris.

Take a look again!

[CARBIZ]

Yeah....no sunroof.....on the really sporty XR 3-door.....once again, GM at it's bone-headed best......and ur right....it would be a deal breaker for me too.

Even CARBIZ said the Cobalt interior is crap.....and in my opinion, that's being nice. GM simply doesn't know how to sweat the details. I really do think their executives live in a Detroit-based vacuum.

How they managed to make the CTS so nice is beyond me......

Ah, it's called DEVELOPMENT DOLLARS, PRIORITIES. The Cavalier replacement was crushed by Lutz in '02 (he hated it that much) and by the looks of the Cobalt, it was no doubt cobbled together from the Ion. Lutz had a lot bigger fires to put out, including coming up with the CTS and the GMT-900s. But you have hit the nail on the head: it's sweating the details. The Cobalt still has a lof of things right: standard split rear seat (not so on the Corolla or Civic), standard automatic headlights, tons of sound deadening under the hood, more standard power, a seamless tranny, gas struts under the hood and trunk, speed sensitive wipers, standard power trunk (the Corolla only now just got that), OnStar, I could go on and on, but sure, some of the details were cheaped out. Give me a new center armrest, get rid of the horrible cloth on the seats, do something about the trim across the center of the dash, an inch or two of shoulder room in the back seat would have been nice. As I said earlier, those who have lived with the Cobalt can see where its star shines, but I will concede that first impressions are lacking. That is why a test drive is sooo important on the Cobalt. Better yet, a prospect should rent one and spend the weekend with it.

I know this is a GM fansite, but while we are crapping all over the Cobalt and Impala, it is the Yaris that is truly a joke. That is the replacement for the Echo? That is an example of what Toyota can do with its billions in profits? Yikes! The '09 Aveo is a better car!

[The O.C.]

Okay, now I know you are smoking. I want the name of your dealer. Your ganga is better than any I can get my hands on. PUHLEASE. I just spent the day with the new Yaris and I drive Cobalts almost every day. No way, no how is the Yaris anywhere close to the Cobalt. It's dash scream Tonka (especially the big cheesy triad of H-VAC controls in the center stack) and the material on the seats was lifted out of a '91 Caravan. I have conceded the Cobalt has lost ground to the Corolla, but no way to the Yaris.

Take a look again!

I've been in plenty.

In fact, the Aveo has a much-better screwed together interior than Cobalt.

Yaris is STILL light-years ahead of Cobalt.

I haven't been in a more depressing compact (or subcompact) since the original Kia Sephia....(and I think even THAT car was better assembled than Cobalt.)

You know my feelings about this car....I'll debate you all day long....but you know what you'll get with me. The Cobalt is absolute junk inside......and that's even compared to the Koreans.....

[gm4life]

O.C. I have been in a Yaris and to me its seens so much cheaper than the Cobalt.

[The O.C.]

O.C. I have been in a Yaris and to me its seens so much cheaper than the Cobalt.

Not to me.

There's something about the sheen to the plastics, the sturdiness of things like the glovebox door....the action and appearance of the switchgear (especially the HVAC and stereo controls)......the supportiveness of the seats.....and the overall integration of the various design elements from the door panels to the instrument panel to the dashboard to the center console, ets.....the color coordination of trim pieces in different colors (as in the beige option in the Yaris....)

To me, even Yaris is upscale compared to Cobalt.....in fact, there's nothing on the market that doesn't beat Cobalt in terms of overall design and fit-an-finish.....EVEN the barebones Rio and Accent Koreans.....

[Camino LS6]

"Yaris" sounds like something you might do after drinking too much.

[turbo200]

I was very close on selling myself on the 5-door. I agree with you about the looks, inside and out. I don't mind the (lack of) performance but the more I researched the car the more I found that, while the EPA mpg ratings are good, fuel economy drops off pretty fast at speeds above 65mph (from 32 to 22 mpg hwy). Even this wouldn't be a problem, except I'll be taking the car to New Mexico where, aside from being at altitude (~7,200 ft), highway speeds can be in the 70's. Have you researched fuel economy and seen the same?

i have not and that would also be a negative for me. i like to keep my freeway speed above 70, though not always possible here.

since there's no sunroof, I've had to begin looking at other cars. I can't see myself getting anything else but something like this car, or the car in my picture. it'll be a hatch 3-door. so the last gen VW R32 is already one of my favorites, the current gen I'm not fond of the shape. the C30 is up there. i can't think of another car that fits my bill [mini is cool but maybe not butch enough]

Edited May 21, 2008 by turbo200

[thegriffon]

Yeah....no sunroof.....on the really sporty XR 3-door.....once again, GM at it's bone-headed best......and ur right....it would be a deal breaker for me too.

Even CARBIZ said the Cobalt interior is crap.....and in my opinion, that's being nice. GM simply doesn't know how to sweat the details. I really do think their executives live in a Detroit-based vacuum.

How they managed to make the CTS so nice is beyond me......

The Astra is built as standard with a panorama roof instead on 3-door models. A sunroof becomes fairly redundant. Alas no panorama roof for NA models, but as a result no sunroof is available either.

[Croc]

i have not and that would also be a negative for me. i like to keep my freeway speed above 70, though not always possible here.

Yup...same here. I'm always doing ~80 on the 10, except when clogged. The 105 and I have a love/hate thing going on, though...I love how empty it is, but I hate how easy it is for me to be going 105 (mph) and not even realizing it!

[regfootball]

if astra had a sedan available and a real motor (at least as an option) and real advertising behind it, it should clean up.

remember why saturn was kept alive, it is rated as one of the best if not the best customer car buying experience.

also, think honda. Saturn originally was small cars done well. Honda still has that rep despite its new products. honda maintains a good rep and people pay more for it even though you can still get a couple of solid value small car choices. This is where Saturn needs to go.

Look at harley. You can still buy a sportster and its a great deal and the product has real value. Yet the rest of the lineup is filled out with good value premium models too. Saturn's small car still needs to embody the spirit of the originals yet have all the gloss everyone expects today. A 138hp 1.8 litre engine as the only option against today's competitors doesnt cut it, and lack of sedan won't cut it. And while we are on the topic, sync in the focus is killing the Astra. Voice activated Ipods is a big thing to hip youngsters and if GM had a clue they would expand the OnStar experience to include the media control, turn by tuirn nav with duplicate image on screen, and other goodies.

Edited May 22, 2008 by regfootball

[turbo200]

remember why saturn was kept alive, it is rated as one of the best if not the best customer car buying experience.

i'm beginning to see this as a real mistake and failure to yet again understand it's own potential, talking about GM. G8, Solstice, even G6 [especially with the convertible] all prove there is life and luster left within Pontiac. Saturn at this point is basically redundant of Chevy, though I understand in the future it's going to occupy more of an 'Oldsmobile' type position in the ladder. The problem there is didn't everybody figure with cars improving so much and consumer expectations what they are today there wasn't really all that much room in between Buick, Chevy, and Cadillac.

The thing that I see is Chevy is only going to get better. I can see Saturn adopting more Euro tendencies to thier cars...Astra-like quality and suspension tuning throughout...the problem I see is that Chevy needs to be getting this kind of treatment as well. The other problem is Saturn does not have that kind of cachet. the other problem is that makes Saturn encroach on Saab. The other problem is...well, where does that leave Pontiac.

When the time for the decision to be made came, I think GM needed to look further into the turnarounds so many other brands managed in the late '90's/early 2000's. so many were set for death...audi/vw, nissan/infiniti... others lacked any definition- subaru, acura....

well it might have proven to them shutting down saturn's paltry ten year existence, small dealer base, and inexistant consumer base outside small economy cars...would have been worth it. i wonder if down the line we'll be looking at that as a major bad judgement call......

Things work in cycles. right now a lot of retro is back in...and cars have a different level of acceptance, people are starting to look at them all as reliable, as well as looking at them less as perfect appliances like we once demanded. we want style, grace, sophistication, and unique qualities...

[CARBIZ]

I've been in plenty.

In fact, the Aveo has a much-better screwed together interior than Cobalt.

Yaris is STILL light-years ahead of Cobalt.

I haven't been in a more depressing compact (or subcompact) since the original Kia Sephia....(and I think even THAT car was better assembled than Cobalt.)

You know my feelings about this car....I'll debate you all day long....but you know what you'll get with me. The Cobalt is absolute junk inside......and that's even compared to the Koreans.....

OC., do us all a favor: rent a damed Yaris. You can't spend 5 minutes in a show room and declare it a winner. I had no idea how bad the Yaris was until I spent the day with one. Considering how much time and money Toyota has, this thing is a joke. The '09 Aveo is going to blow this thing out of the water: the fit and finish, the new power train, the interior plastics. I usually have respect for your comments, even when we disagree, but you are dead wrong on the Yaris. The HVAC controls actually feel like a kids toy. Take a look at the seats: they literally look like the same moulded as one seats that the '91 Caravans sported. I am not comparing the Cobalt here. The Cobalt is more than 3 years old. Let's compare the Yaris to the new Aveo.

For Gawd's sake: the Yaris doesn't even have a 5 Star crash rating! On a 'all new vehicle' that is outrageous. But then neither does the Tundra. Toyota is slipping.

[gm4life]

Toyota is slipping.

[enzl]

OC., do us all a favor: rent a damed Yaris. You can't spend 5 minutes in a show room and declare it a winner. I had no idea how bad the Yaris was until I spent the day with one. Considering how much time and money Toyota has, this thing is a joke. The '09 Aveo is going to blow this thing out of the water: the fit and finish, the new power train, the interior plastics. I usually have respect for your comments, even when we disagree, but you are dead wrong on the Yaris. The HVAC controls actually feel like a kids toy. Take a look at the seats: they literally look like the same moulded as one seats that the '91 Caravans sported. I am not comparing the Cobalt here. The Cobalt is more than 3 years old. Let's compare the Yaris to the new Aveo.

For Gawd's sake: the Yaris doesn't even have a 5 Star crash rating! On a 'all new vehicle' that is outrageous. But then neither does the Tundra. Toyota is slipping.

The Yaris is, IMO, surprisingly cheap. It and the Tundra aren't Toyota's best efforts.

I think the problem is that the Aveo may become mid-pack, but the Kia Soul, Honda Fit & Ford Fiesta are probably the class acts, with the Nissan Cube also creating a new standard for the segment in the NA market.

If the Corsa was GM's new B, I'd be thrilled. The Daewoo products aren't even close to GM's best effort in the class.