De Lorenzo: It's all over but the hand-wringing for Pontiac

[The O.C.]

If that, or something damned close, doesn't happen - the answer is dead.

That it hasn't already happened is a crime.

They had a good plan, but have hedged on it, delayed it, and cast doubt upon it instead of getting the job done.

That lineup should be firmly in place by now.

I totally agree with you.

In this thread, and the other one, I'm not necessarily arguing with you, but I'm trying to take a most realistic look on the current and future situation.

I bet you, and I, could have told GM what to do with Pontiac 15 years ago.....and I bet if they would have, or could have done it, it would be a winning brand today.

BUT....what needs to happen never seems to happen.

Look at even Cadillac! Even Cadillac doesn't have the cohesive premium lineup it needs to effectively compete with the BMWs, Benzs, and Lexuss of the world. GM doesn't have one fully successful lineup in it's roster....!

[Camino LS6]

I totally agree with you.

In this thread, and the other one, I'm not necessarily arguing with you, but I'm trying to take a most realistic look on the current and future situation.

I bet you, and I, could have told GM what to do with Pontiac 15 years ago.....and I bet if they would have, or could have done it, it would be a winning brand today.

BUT....what needs to happen never seems to happen.

Look at even Cadillac! Even Cadillac doesn't have the cohesive premium lineup it needs to effectively compete with the BMWs, Benzs, and Lexuss of the world. GM doesn't have one fully successful lineup in it's roster....!

It's corporate ADD.

[The O.C.]

It's corporate ADD.

It's f@#king after midnight there......will you just GO TO BED?

<smooch>

[Camino LS6]

You're not getting off that easy...

I'm all riled up from the Pontiac grumblings of the day.

[The O.C.]

You're not getting off that easy...

I'm all riled up from the Pontiac grumblings of the day.

Gawd damn.....I have some really great memories of Pontiac myself.

Maybe that's why I've been so damn blunt today. GM has totally squandered it. But I don't know that they can recover.

So what do they do.....for the greater good of the corporation.....to survive? Keep nurturing a dead duck? Pouring money down an endless pit?

I wish they'd just spend the billions and billions to right the wrong and make it a division worth keeping. I just don't see them doing that though.

[The O.C.]

im riled up from this........

pontiac on its bumper

[/hijack]

I'm not riled up at all.

I just like pushing Camino's buttons....

(j/k guys......LOL)

[The O.C.]

im riled up from this........

pontiac on its bumper

[/hijack]

C'mon you HAVE to admit.....Pontiac has been the recipient of some pretty bone-headed product decisions by GM.

G5? Gimme a break (and even though it's a sad "rebadge"......not even a turbo "SS" version in sight....for GM's "performance" division.)

G6? Where's the performance or excitement over a Malibu or AURA?

Torrent? I'm not gonna even go THERE.....

We have G8.....and Solstice....(and GM STILL felt it was necessary to f@#k the Solstice and give a version to Saturn....)......

Pontiac would have been a WINNER if proper thought and product development had been focused on say, 10 years ago.

[Camino LS6]

My buttons were pushed hours ago, I hope I can calm it all down enough to get some sleep!

I have some definite ideas about what they should do - but I'm not getting started on that tonight or I'll never sleep! :AH-HA_wink:

[Camino LS6]

C'mon you HAVE to admit.....Pontiac has been the recipient of some pretty bone-headed product decisions by GM.

G5? Gimme a break (and even though it's a sad "rebadge"......not even a turbo "SS" version in sight....for GM's "performance" division.)

G6? Where's the performance or excitement over a Malibu or AURA?

Torrent? I'm not gonna even go THERE.....

We have G8.....and Solstice....(and GM STILL felt it was necessary to f@#k the Solstice and give a version to Saturn....)......

Pontiac would have been a WINNER if proper thought and product development had been focused on say, 10 years ago.

Nothing to argue with in this post.

[The O.C.]

My buttons were pushed hours ago, I hope I can calm it all down enough to get some sleep!

I have some definite ideas about what they should do - but I'm not getting started on that tonight or I'll never sleep! :AH-HA_wink:

That's okay....you are three hours ahead of me.

I'll just make sure to put some outrageous posts on here....oh say...in an hour or two....so you'll have them to look forward to when you wake up!

[Camino LS6]

Me and my big mouth!

[The O.C.]

Me and my big mouth!

Did you just say "big mouth?"

Hmmm....don't tempt my tummy with the taste o' nuts 'n honey......

(I'm sorry....I've had some wine...and I'm just having WAY too much fun messin' with you......thanks for bein' a good sport...LOL, LOL)

Edited May 8, 2008 by The O.C.

[Camino LS6]

OK, time to crash before I get into any more trouble here.

kinda thought you might have been into the hooch tonight. :AH-HA_wink:

[The O.C.]

OK, time to crash before I get into any more trouble here.

kinda thought you might have been into the hooch tonight. :AH-HA_wink:

The "hooch?"

Huh?

Actually not THAT much......but it's been fun

[turbo200]

OC....cars like the Gran Prix are doing no favors to Pontiac, and I am not arguing that Pontiac is not damaged goods. But for all the negatives I can find with the G6, it says a lot for where we are as a market that a really decent mode of transportation like the G6 is constantly bashed here.

I'm not saying GM or Pontiac should be happy with what they have. but try taking the Pontiac lineup in the context of nothing else on the market. just in the context of a Pontiac car, and yeah well we're in 2008, so try to remove yourself from the daily information you digest on cars and just look at the lineup. it's not the worst thing that ever happened to the world.....

and actually i'd say stylistically they're in much better shape than say dodge or chrysler [not saying much], and they could be considered like a sexy counterpart to a mazda. operative words being 'could be thought of as'

bottom line to me is that we may put a lot of stock in the last five years of product and sales.....but there are still people out there that remember a good Pontiac, not that long ago, say the 2000 Gran Prix, the last Firebird WS6.....and now we have a solstice, a great solstice GXP, some pretension of performance with G6 GXP, a radical and weird but still interesting G6 coupe, a hardtop vert, and a great exec sedan at the top....

and there are tons of new people who's definition of Pontiac is just being shaped [or has been shaped like me by a couple generations of truly subpar product]. if we go by my last point of my generation and the one upcoming.....well we can include all of GM in there too, since they have been pretty lousy all around in my lifetime [with few bright exceptions not enough to outshine complete mediocrity in mass market cars].

[Ryan27]

Nothing to argue with in this post.

How about the fact that the G6 is the only one that comes in a coupe? or a convetible, anybody that ever says a Malibu or Aura is just as good as a G6 obviously doesnt even think of or care about a 2 door coupe. I will never buy a sedan and if it were up to you guys... you wanna kill the only brand making a coupe....

[The O.C.]

OC....cars like the Gran Prix are doing no favors to Pontiac, and I am not arguing that Pontiac is not damaged goods. But for all the negatives I can find with the G6, it says a lot for where we are as a market that a really decent mode of transportation like the G6 is constantly bashed here.

I'm not saying GM or Pontiac should be happy with what they have. but try taking the Pontiac lineup in the context of nothing else on the market. just in the context of a Pontiac car, and yeah well we're in 2008, so try to remove yourself from the daily information you digest on cars and just look at the lineup. it's not the worst thing that ever happened to the world.....

and actually i'd say stylistically they're in much better shape than say dodge or chrysler [not saying much], and they could be considered like a sexy counterpart to a mazda. operative words being 'could be thought of as'

bottom line to me is that we may put a lot of stock in the last five years of product and sales.....but there are still people out there that remember a good Pontiac, not that long ago, say the 2000 Gran Prix, the last Firebird WS6.....and now we have a solstice, a great solstice GXP, some pretension of performance with G6 GXP, a radical and weird but still interesting G6 coupe, a hardtop vert, and a great exec sedan at the top....

and there are tons of new people who's definition of Pontiac is just being shaped [or has been shaped like me by a couple generations of truly subpar product]. if we go by my last point of my generation and the one upcoming.....well we can include all of GM in there too, since they have been pretty lousy all around in my lifetime [with few bright exceptions not enough to outshine complete mediocrity in mass market cars].

To me, the G6 just simply seems like a generation removed from the Malibu and AURA (which it is, I guess.) Granted I haven't driven a new Malibu yet, but when you read the reviews that car has gotten, it seems to offer a driving experience quite a bit above that of the G6.

I've been sorely disappointed in every G6 I've had as a rental to drive. AND, all of them have been V6 powered and one was even a then-GTP equipped with the 3.9L.

Even the top GTP clomped and banged over rough road, but didn't really seem to offer any handling advantages for it's rough ride. I still vividly remember the one I had in Portland, Oregon. Take it around an on-ramp and the car, even with the GTP tires/suspension, rolled over and understeered severely. Old-school GM suspension tuning/damping.....stiff, hard ride, but mushy handling. Powertrain refinement was also lacking.

To me, it just feels GM-old-style to me compared to just about every other midsize sedan I've been in over the last couple of years. That's my bitch overall with G6.....it's lack of competitiveness in the marketplace.

Now that aside, I still think it's an attractive car....and center-stack and center-console aside, I don't have any bitches about the interior actually. G6 needs to feel like a little-brother to the G8 (regardless of drive wheels)....but the current one just seems 180-degrees instead.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I don't know ANYONE that owns a Pontiac.

Let's get brutally honest here. Pontiac is irrelevant in today's marketplace. Take fleet/rental sales out of it, and you have a brand that is a trickle in the bucket in regards to true consumer appeal and consideration.

I'm sorry to the many Pontiac fans on here (I used to be one of them.)

The G8 is WONDERFUL......but it's one lone star in a lineup of totally irrelevant products.

G6 is a JOKE. G5 is a JOKE. Torrent is a JOKE. Grand Prix is (was?) a JOKE. Let's be f@#kING honest here. This product lineup is lackluster at BEST compared to the competition....and really offers nothing that can't be had at another GM division (except the aforementioned G8.)

Face it folks. It's GM's Plymouth.

DAMMIT I get pissed off. Sorry. End of rant. I'm just sick of all the mediocrity from this corporation and people trying to pass it off as ANYTHING nearing significance in today's marketplace......cause the consumer obviously doesn't consider it significant AT ALL.....

:angry2:

All subjective...

Saturn is a trickle in the bucket (especially before the product renaissance, you know the one that Pontiac has yet to receive) Buick is STILL a drop in the bucket despite large news on product.

My point is; everything is subjective... I can sit here and tell you that Acura is a joke and should be phased out because it's the same &#036;h&#33; that you can buy on a Honda lot but I bet you wouldn't like that too much. The same goes for Audi which is just a shadow of VW models with a better marketing campaign, yet eventhough VW is in bad shape, I don't see anyone calling for it to be phased out.

Once again, I ask, how much of this is fact and how much of it is people giving in to the mindset that Detroit must downsize? A mindset that has been forced on us by the media since the 2001 Oldsmobile announcement

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

That's ridiculous FOG.....they are three separate brands that simply share a distribution channel.

Three brands are still going to need three different types of marketing and advertising support in order to build upon or repair brand image and perception. How in the hell do you think GM can promote BPG as "one brand" when their products and target markets are so diverse???

You can build the prestige of all three brands through customer service and corporate campaigns (Think: dealer promotion) It's basically the same idea Ford had with PAG, except done right.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

but with platforms/products ALREADY in GM's stable or under development, you can make a kick ass division that can capture todays young AND young at heart... it could easily have a relevant place in the market

EXACTLY!

The youth are already more Pontiac biased anyway because of exposure to the pop culture and it's representation of key Pontiacs. Ask anyone my age what they think of classic Trans Ams and you'll get a positive response.

Now, before people get all pissed about my 'youth' comment, bear in mind that I am referring to divisions within GM. The ONLY division that comes close to attracting youth like Pontiac is Chevrolet. That's a VERY sad and scary reality. (Is GM using any of it's divisions to appeal to youth?) Sure, Saturn has made progress, but not much. Cadillac is appealing, but not affordable and chances are that those who do aspire to a Cadillac will be swept up by a more affordable mid-lux division (Acura, Audi, etc.) and form strong ties to it. Hummer was appealing.

This is where Pontiac could excel... Give these people something to step into before they step into the Cadillac. Buick will NOT be that for a very long time and Saturn will always carry the 'geek' image because it still is kinda cheesy and geeky.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The better question is why doesn't a real Pontiac lineup exist?

Kappa

Zeta

Alpha

That's all they need.

It's not even that complicated...

If GM wanted to, all they'd need is Delta II, Eps II and Zeta.

Hell, they could do it on Epsilon! Look at what we have here now; an Aura that sells on style and a Malibu that is apparently going to sell on efficiency. Why not continue to push the green envelope with the Malibu and push the G6 as the performance Epsilon?!?! Mod the suspension, drop another motor in it and make a REAL GXP. Falling sales? Who cares, the car isn't supposed to be for everyone anyway and Pontiac isn't supposed to pull volume anyway. The only other GM car that comes close is a Saab and I'm willing to bet that those customer would *gasp* never be caught dead in a G6.

It's so simple that a 10 year old could do it, yet GM can't seem to figure it out.

Edited May 8, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

So what do they do.....for the greater good of the corporation.....to survive? Keep nurturing a dead duck? Pouring money down an endless pit?

No, they shouldn't...

I'm all for killing Saturn (the dead duck) and killing Saab (the endless money pit)

[gm4life]

They need to be performance mainstream, sporty and a balance of FWD and RWD. The G6 and G5 must remain FWD for sales. The Torrent is okay a sporty SUV is appealing and the G8 needs to stay RWD with the Solstice.

[regfootball]

I don't know ANYONE that owns a Pontiac.

Let's get brutally honest here. Pontiac is irrelevant in today's marketplace. Take fleet/rental sales out of it, and you have a brand that is a trickle in the bucket in regards to true consumer appeal and consideration.

I'm sorry to the many Pontiac fans on here (I used to be one of them.)

The G8 is WONDERFUL......but it's one lone star in a lineup of totally irrelevant products.

G6 is a JOKE. G5 is a JOKE. Torrent is a JOKE. Grand Prix is (was?) a JOKE. Let's be f@#kING honest here. This product lineup is lackluster at BEST compared to the competition....and really offers nothing that can't be had at another GM division (except the aforementioned G8.)

Face it folks. It's GM's Plymouth.

DAMMIT I get pissed off. Sorry. End of rant. I'm just sick of all the mediocrity from this corporation and people trying to pass it off as ANYTHING nearing significance in today's marketplace......cause the consumer obviously doesn't consider it significant AT ALL.....

:angry2:

well, i know 3 people with grand prixs (yes i know these are not the best examples of the breed) and well, i have a pontiac, (ok, an aztek) but i sure will give a g8 a chance to be in my garage.

again, pontiac would be fine if they just kept refreshing the product and did a top notch job of it. it wasn't all that long ago that the bonneville, grand am, and grand prix and sunfire all sold in huge numbers, sometimes topping 100k.

[The O.C.]

They need to be performance mainstream, sporty and a balance of FWD and RWD. The G6 and G5 must remain FWD for sales. The Torrent is okay a sporty SUV is appealing and the G8 needs to stay RWD with the Solstice.

What just exactly makes a Torrent ANY more sporting than an Equinox? Huh?

They share engines, transmissions, suspension and chassis, styling, interior......they are basically the same minus a few badges and extremely minor trim changes. Torrent isn't anywhere near "sporty"....not even in GXP trim.

[Camino LS6]

Torrent is gone soon anyway, what does it matter?

[Croc]

The G6 and G5 must remain FWD for sales. The Torrent is okay a sporty SUV is appealing.

Why do you insist on clones for Pontiac? G5 must be FWD for sales? What sales? It's 99% identical to the Cobalt (from a consumer perspective)! The G6 also doesn't offer anything any other Epsilon can't. And it's sales are heavily fleeted.

Forget FWD. Pontiac has no future with a lineup of FWD. And the Torrent is an Equinox with a sports "appearance" trim--i.e. not functional add-ons for "sporty" look. There is nothing "sporty" about the Torrent that does not exist on the Equinox.

[The O.C.]

Torrent is gone soon anyway, what does it matter?

He said Torrent is "okay" and a "sporty SUV."

[Croc]

What just exactly makes a Torrent ANY more sporting than an Equinox? Huh?

They share engines, transmissions, suspension and chassis, styling, interior......they are basically the same minus a few badges and extremely minor trim changes. Torrent isn't anywhere near "sporty"....not even in GXP trim.

You know it, I know it, the rest of C&G knows it. gm4life I believe recently bought into the marketing kool aid and is trying to justify his purchase.

That said, consumers like him justify the argument that Pontiac buyers won't just go to Chevrolet.

[The O.C.]

That said, consumers like him justify the argument that Pontiac buyers won't just go to Chevrolet.

Yeah, I know.......but my whole thing is.....just HOW MANY of them truly are there? When you take ALL of Pontiac's fleet/rental sales from all of their products out of the equation, how big of a division do we really have?

How many consumers are truly "Pontiac fans?" How many of them purchased a Pontiac cause they truly DESIRED it, versus the people that bought one because they got $5,000 off on one (like NOS' parents did on a G5...?)

I think we end up talking about a drop-in-the-bucket......

[Camino LS6]

Forget FWD. Pontiac has no future with a lineup of FWD.

Absolutely.

[Blake Noble]

That said, consumers like him justify the argument that Pontiac buyers won't just go to Chevrolet.

Well, actually there are Pontiac buyers who will not go to Chevrolet. Those are the people who purchased the G8 and Solstice. There is no alternative in Chevrolet's line-up they could buy instead.

[Croc]

Yeah, I know.......but my whole thing is.....just HOW MANY of them truly are there? When you take ALL of Pontiac's fleet/rental sales from all of their products out of the equation, how big of a division do we really have?

How many consumers are truly "Pontiac fans?" How many of them purchased a Pontiac cause they truly DESIRED it, versus the people that bought one because they got $5,000 off on one (like NOS' parents did on a G5...?)

I think we end up talking about a drop-in-the-bucket......

Pontiac still posts impressive youth aspiration demographics. No other division comes close.

[Croc]

Well, actually there are Pontiac buyers who will not go to Chevrolet. Those are the people who purchased the G8 and Solstice. There is no alternative in Chevrolet's line-up they could buy instead.

I wasn't being facetious. I'm against closing Pontiac.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Yeah, I know.......but my whole thing is.....just HOW MANY of them truly are there? When you take ALL of Pontiac's fleet/rental sales from all of their products out of the equation, how big of a division do we really have?

How many consumers are truly "Pontiac fans?" How many of them purchased a Pontiac cause they truly DESIRED it, versus the people that bought one because they got $5,000 off on one (like NOS' parents did on a G5...?)

I think we end up talking about a drop-in-the-bucket......

How many people bought a Camry because they were a Camry fan? How many people bought it because of "facts" in the media and the tremendous lease deals?

(Yes. I love playing devils advocate)

[Blake Noble]

I wasn't being facetious. I'm against closing Pontiac.

I misread your post. My apologies.

[Robert Hall]

How many people bought a Camry because they were a Camry fan? How many people bought it because of "facts" in the media and the tremendous lease deals?

(Yes. I love playing devils advocate)

Thing is, for most people, the Camry is a perfectly rational choice...they just look at the reviews in Consumer Reports, the reliability ratings, the resale value, it's an easy choice. GM choices are a harder sell for most people, I'm afraid.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Alpha G5

EP-II FWD/AWD G6

SigZeta G8

Solstice

Bam.

[Robert Hall]

Alpha G5

EP-II FWD/AWD G6

SigZeta G8

Solstice

Bam.

That would be a nice lineup... 4 models would be enough...Buick has 3 models...

[VenSeattle]

Yeah, I know.......but my whole thing is.....just HOW MANY of them truly are there? When you take ALL of Pontiac's fleet/rental sales from all of their products out of the equation, how big of a division do we really have?

How many consumers are truly "Pontiac fans?" How many of them purchased a Pontiac cause they truly DESIRED it, versus the people that bought one because they got $5,000 off on one (like NOS' parents did on a G5...?)

I think we end up talking about a drop-in-the-bucket......

More than Scion... even based on current sales volume... and Pontiac isn't a division... but neither is Scion apparently. Maybe GM should start reporting Pontiac sales grouped in with GMC & Buick?

Sorry about the Scion comparison, but I still see tons of Scions rolling around with painted business graphics and vinyl stickers with hub-caps advertising the local gizmo or service. This includes the new xB & xD. Scion is relegated to 'outlet' & 'business tax write-off' hell here in the PacNW. The fleeted Pontiacs at least survive with a mild scanbar on the back side window and look somewhat respectable.

After giving this some serious thought... what if Pontiac was to debut the Chevy Gamma triplets instead? Pontiac Beat, Groove, Trax with an Alpha 'Mix' coupe to round out the line-up? Chevrolet could continue with an Aveo 2-dr, 3-dr, 4-dr, 5-dr line-up and new Cobalt for the compact coupe/sedan?

[thegriffon]

Beat, Groove and TRax aren't Gamma, they sit the size class below Gamma.

[Croc]

Alpha G6 (sedan, coupe, conv.)

SigZeta G8

G8 ST

Solstice

Bam.

Fixed.

[CARBIZ]

More than Scion... even based on current sales volume... and Pontiac isn't a division... but neither is Scion apparently. Maybe GM should start reporting Pontiac sales grouped in with GMC & Buick?

Sorry about the Scion comparison, but I still see tons of Scions rolling around with painted business graphics and vinyl stickers with hub-caps advertising the local gizmo or service. This includes the new xB & xD. Scion is relegated to 'outlet' & 'business tax write-off' hell here in the PacNW. The fleeted Pontiacs at least survive with a mild scanbar on the back side window and look somewhat respectable.

After giving this some serious thought... what if Pontiac was to debut the Chevy Gamma triplets instead? Pontiac Beat, Groove, Trax with an Alpha 'Mix' coupe to round out the line-up? Chevrolet could continue with an Aveo 2-dr, 3-dr, 4-dr, 5-dr line-up and new Cobalt for the compact coupe/sedan?

One of the things GM shouldn't be doing is pitting P-B-GMC dealers against Chevrolet dealers. They have been doing it here for years and it is Chevrolet that has lost out. I am not sure if it would have the same long term impact south of the border, but GM cannot afford to kill the goose that is laying the only eggs these days.

If Pontiac is to survive, then it should not be competing with Chevrolet in the low end of the price scale. The Vibe is in keeping with Pontiac's mission, the Wave is not. In retrospect, it would have been better if Corvette belonged to Pontiac, but with 55 years of heritage, I guess we dare not go down that road, but Pontiac would be better off as the 'performance' division, while Chevrolet could remain the volume division. In 1967 there was plenty of room in the pony market for both the Camaro and Firebird. Today there would not be.

Personally, I felt once 'leather' seats became available in a Malibu it was the beginning of the end. The Malibu and G6 can co-exist, but they shouldn't be competing on price. What would be wrong with having a base Malibu starting a couple grand lower than a base G6 but having the G6 available with more performance goodies?

[The O.C.]

How many people bought a Camry because they were a Camry fan? How many people bought it because of "facts" in the media and the tremendous lease deals?

(Yes. I love playing devils advocate)

Devil's advocate is fine.

But Camry fleet/rental sales are a fraction of Grand Prix's and G6's.......(at least they were last time I saw figures.) My whole point in mentioning that is because there are way more retail consumers choosing to purchase, say for example, a Camry.....than there is G6, Grand Prix, et al.

I'm not saying they are rabid "Camry fans" like there maybe be rabid "Pontiac" fans.....but clearly a lot fewer consumers are choosing to make a Pontiac their next vehicle purchase.

(Thank god for G8. I just wish the rest of the lineup was as consistent and competitive.)

Edited May 9, 2008 by The O.C.

[VenSeattle]

Beat, Groove and TRax aren't Gamma, they sit the size class below Gamma.

Oops! sorry about that comment. Does the global mini-car platform have a name yet?

Besides the Aveo replacement, what Gamma vehicles are planned for the US?

[Blake Noble]

Besides the Aveo replacement, what Gamma vehicles are planned for the US?

Saturn will have a version of the Opel Corsa.

[thegriffon]

You will probably get the two compact SUVs as well (a Chevy and an Opel/Saturn, around Tiguan/Patriot/HHR-size). Other variants which may not make to the US include at least one 5-seat B/C-MPV (Meriva, growing to Scenic/PT Cruiser/xB size judging from the concept), a compact LCV (Combo, like the Transit Connect), a 2-seat roadster (Tigra), a compact pickup (Montana/Tornado), a Corsa sedan etc. There is also a wide range of rwd compact and subcompact minivans and commercial vehicles being developed in China under the Wuling brand.

[balthazar]

>>"But Camry fleet/rental sales are a fraction of Grand Prix's and G6's"<<

Fleet volume, 1st half of '07:

Camry :: 14762

G6 :: 25751

GP :: 32454

3 camrys fleeted to every 5 G6s, not that lopsided, really.

Allegations have been forwarded that toyota underreports their fleet numbers, FWIW.

[enzl]

>>"But Camry fleet/rental sales are a fraction of Grand Prix's and G6's"<<

Fleet volume, 1st half of '07:

Camry :: 14762

G6 :: 25751

GP :: 32454

3 camrys fleeted to every 5 G6s, not that lopsided, really.

Allegations have been forwarded that toyota underreports their fleet numbers, FWIW.

1 of every 50 Camry's sold....vs. 1 in 5 or worse?

C'mon man.

Fact: We met with Toyota Fleet last week...they're far from turning over every rock...they are restricted by corporate in scope and number of bids they make.

You're living in a dream-world if you're going to hang your hat on the numbers you're trying to twist.

Edited May 10, 2008 by enzl

[balthazar]

I'm not disputing the percentages, but they are -of course- extrapolated from actual quantities. Doesn't come off dire & dreadful enough for you, I know.

Might be illustrative to learn that tho the camry only fleets to about 8%, 8% of 400K is NOT only a few hundred cars, like "8%" sounds like it might be. This is the inherant mislead that using only percentages brings.