Is a G8 coupe [or name to be decided] still be on?

[hyperv6]

When GM said the Manaro and GTO was canceled was this the whole story?

Holdens new 60 coupe is very much like the GTO concept drawings in Motor trend about 3 years ago. Why would Holden show such a car near production trim if they were not going to produce it. With a G8 front clip a Pontiac coupe would be a simple addition.

Could we be getting a coupe but it may just not be called a GTO?

I ponder was the GM notice a hold vs a cancelation?

The If GM would release this car next year they could get a 5-8 year run out of it before it could be changed to a Alpha.

Even if Alpha was approved today GM needs something to sell for the next 5 years at the very least.

[zetaman]

Holden apparently developed Monaro/GTO to rolling prototype prior to getting nixed by GMNA. This could just be a modified version of the prototype used for the birthday celebration but still without plans for production. My not-so-secret desire is to see this get the go ahead... Unfortunately, GM excels at managing expectations - it usually ***ps all over them

[Oracle of Delphi]

Here, let me help y'all, since I've had the full set of sketches for a while now.

They must have slipped my mind. I think these were leaked to Motor Trend at the time. :AH-HA_wink:

Edited March 1, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[4gm]

It's a killer design. I don't understand how something so great looking doesn't get the go ahead.

[regfootball]

its all up to carlpeter

[Newbiewar]

such a thing would be known as a camaro twin... just a thought...

although maybe different wheel bases, or one comes from canada one from astralia

[hyperv6]

Here, let me help y'all, since I've had the full set of sketches for a while now.

They must have slipped my mind. I think these were leaked to Motor Trend at the time. :AH-HA_wink:

Gee there must be an echo in here.

I already stated it was from Motor Trend about three years ago. I did not need to repost all of them to make a point because most here also saw them in Motor Trend too.

[hyperv6]

such a thing would be known as a camaro twin... just a thought...

although maybe different wheel bases, or one comes from canada one from astralia

Well same platform but a totally different car that would not direcly compete with the Camaro in Price, Style and over all a different car in a different class.

This is not a rebadged Camaro like the Firebird was with 1 inch lower springs and a different nose like in 1967.

[ZL-1]

I find those sketches a little too cartoonish...

[ocnblu]

Borger saved those Motor Trend sketches because he was hoping at the time they were published to eventually be able to purchase one as a Pontiac. Unfortunately since then he has become brainwashed. I think an Intervention is in order. :AH-HA_wink:

Seriously, even though the photos are tiny, you guys can get a better feel for the proposed GTO by checking the photo set at Motor Trend... not renderings, actual photos, taken from a great distance. Spy Stuff.

Edited March 1, 2008 by ocnblu

[Intrepidation]

Gee there must be an echo in here.

I already stated it was from Motor Trend about three years ago. I did not need to repost all of them to make a point because most here also saw them in Motor Trend too.

I hadn't seen them, so there.

I find those sketches a little too cartoonish...

Agreed. Honestly, justt put the G8 grill on the Coupe 60 and bring it here and I'll be more than happy.

[SuperSport623]

IS there any chance of this? so far Borger hasnt crushed my hope for this yet....

[hyperv6]

I hadn't seen them, so there.

Don't be a defender of Pontiac Man or we will be forced to set you adrift on the same iceberg as him. :AH-HA_wink:

[BigPontiac]

Better renditions can be found here:

Leftlane News #1

Leftlane News #2

Orange version of the chop Northstar already posted in another thread:

[Intrepidation]

over and over and over....

[SuperSport623]

over and over and over....

sloppy seconds!!!! :AH-HA_wink:

[Oracle of Delphi]

Don't be a defender of Pontiac Man or we will be forced to set you adrift on the same iceberg as him. :AH-HA_wink:

You and what army will be putting me on this iceberg? As for this car, here are the facts, no business case, no export program, no signoff by CPF, not going to happen. This was built to steal the thunder on Ford's new products at Melbourne's auto show, and to celebrate various anniversaries within Holden, nothing more, nothing less.

[turbo200]

You and what army will be putting me on this iceberg? As for this car, here are the facts, no business case, no export program, no signoff by CPF, not going to happen. This was built to steal the thunder on Ford's new products at Melbourne's auto show, and to celebrate various anniversaries within Holden, nothing more, nothing less.

That is unfortunate.

If I was a dedicated auto analyst I'd have access to stats that could prove just how poorly GM has come to understand the car market in the US. Within the state of California, we must represent, IDK 15-20% of the total sales of the country. I see more new cars here daily then some people see yearly.

there is an insatiable demand for cars with class, cars that look and feel expensive. market perception is the biggest issue here. If your Ipod isn't the coolest, newest Ipod, then you're SOL in the game of life. Essentially the shallowest of perceptions are the biggest here; evidently we live to impress upon one another our status. And if your car isn't cool and doesn't look good, then you are on the wrong side of the fence in the game of life. Los Angeles in particular is its own country, in terms of trends, in terms of general lifestyles, etc.

In general, GM sells cars that are value leaders. They sell cars that are cheap, look cheap, and feel cheap. They are not highly regarded, and the people at the top of the food chain, don't care one lick about them, nor that they're American, nor that they're struggling to survive. People don't want their car to scream value leader. And they want thier car to be percieved as rich...not as rental car, cheap, tacky....uncouth.

This car is nothing like that. The great thing is the American market is fickle and will look to any brand as a success story, as long as they can show they have it in them. Right now I am witnessing a proliferation again of the Audi brand. Infiniti is having great success with the G35/G37 despite not having another successful model except for the fashionable FX. Toyota has had a resurgance with the undeniably dignified/classy and substantial looking Camry. Ford has an Edge that is gaining popularity [while getting beaten up in every market except with the Mustang].

You get it. This is a cyclical business. And everyone's tastes/needs are different. Pontiac can release a car like this and gain real attention that everyone will laud. GTO was a failure because it's exterior failed to be fresh, excite, or scream anything except an audible, guttaral "whoop" that people walked on by as something that had already been said in the past.

This will be another chance GM had to improve thier image that is still in the gutter because of a lack of cars that speak to the market. If they don't release this car, they are passing on a chance to greatly improve thier standing in the world.

[SuperSport623]

im not going off on a rant, im not gonna get all fanatical.. but this is bull$h!... because the cars i want are being dangled in my face and this blows.. this car could be built easily, so why the hell not? ive said it before and ill say again.. f@#k new cars, im stcking with the old....

[zetaman]

You and what army will be putting me on this iceberg? As for this car, here are the facts, no business case, no export program, no signoff by CPF, not going to happen. This was built to steal the thunder on Ford's new products at Melbourne's auto show, and to celebrate various anniversaries within Holden, nothing more, nothing less.

All of that is true.. to a point. I wouldn't write off getting the Coupe60 produced just yet. The last Monaro started life exactly the same way as did the soon-to-be-released Camaro - design studies/show cars. Huge public reaction motivated the decision to build.

Coupe60 has elicited a phenomenal reaction here - enormous crowds and palpable excitement around the stand (and not just the Holden fans). Like the last Monaro, this is a car that transcends brand loyalty. Punters are alreading trying to place deposits at Holden dealers.

The decision may be forced on Holden due to capacity issues but I doubt they couldn't make a business case - the advantage of zeta architecture is the flexibility inherent in it's design that permits multiple configurations with minimal investment. It's a cheaper car to modify than even the previous platform - and that was made into many versions (sedan, coupe, 2dr ute, 4dr ute, 4wd, lwb, suv).

Holden's been sitting on this car for some time - since the Monaro/GTO project got canned a few years back, and they've been waiting for the chance to show it off. I bet the plan is to use the huge public response Holden knew would come in order to support the business case - Holden wants to build this car.

[Oracle of Delphi]

All of that is true.. to a point. I wouldn't write off getting the Coupe60 produced just yet. The last Monaro started life exactly the same way as did the soon-to-be-released Camaro - design studies/show cars. Huge public reaction motivated the decision to build.

Coupe60 has elicited a phenomenal reaction here - enormous crowds and palpable excitement around the stand (and not just the Holden fans). Like the last Monaro, this is a car that transcends brand loyalty. Punters are alreading trying to place deposits at Holden dealers.

The decision may be forced on Holden due to capacity issues but I doubt they couldn't make a business case - the advantage of zeta architecture is the flexibility inherent in it's design that permits multiple configurations with minimal investment. It's a cheaper car to modify than even the previous platform - and that was made into many versions (sedan, coupe, 2dr ute, 4dr ute, 4wd, lwb, suv).

Holden's been sitting on this car for some time - since the Monaro/GTO project got canned a few years back, and they've been waiting for the chance to show it off. I bet the plan is to use the huge public response Holden knew would come in order to support the business case - Holden wants to build this car.

CPF will say no, because of CAFE, CO2, and build constraints within Elizabeth itself. And you know as well as I do GM will not build another plant in Australia, or the UAW will go to war and GM can't afford to take back the Health care cost.

Like your said this 2 door is old, but zeta itself is old if you go all the way back to when Mike Simcoe 1st started it, late 90's.

Edited March 2, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[zetaman]

CPF will say no, because of CAFE, CO2, and build constraints within Elizabeth itself. And you know as well as I do GM will not build another plant in Australia, or the UAW will go to war and GM can't afford to take back the Health care cost.

Like your said this 2 door is old, but zeta itself is old if you go all the way back to when Mike Simcoe 1st started it, late 90's.

Age of the architecture has little to do with it. Your beloved Sigma (co-developed by Holden) is even older, what's your point?

Edited March 2, 2008 by zetaman

[Oracle of Delphi]

Age of the architecture has little to do with it. Your beloved Sigma (co-developed by Holden) is even older, what's your point?

Sigma is not beloved by me, and you know as well as I do that Simcoe's contribution to Sigma was very small one, almost not worth mentioning. Now I do like Sigma II a bit more and the 2008 Cadillac CTS. However, these days I'm in love with Epsilon II, especially when it comes to Saab, I see a Saab 9 3, or 9 5 in my future or if I'm still in Europe an Opel Insignia, in 2010 or so. Starting next month my company car will be a Holden, we'll see how she holds up as the Börger drives her up and down the Autobahn. :AH-HA_wink:

[Robert Hall]

CPF will say no, because of CAFE, CO2, and build constraints within Elizabeth itself. And you know as well as I do GM will not build another plant in Australia, or the UAW will go to war and GM can't afford to take back the Health care cost.

Like your said this 2 door is old, but zeta itself is old if you go all the way back to when Mike Simcoe 1st started it, late 90's.

I wouldn't call Zeta old, esp. compared to your beloved W-body..

[Blake Noble]

I wouldn't call Zeta old, esp. compared to your beloved W-body..

My, my! How does the truth hurt for Borger!

Edited March 2, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Intrepidation]

The Zeta's basic designs may be older, but the handling is still world class, unlike any W-Body. There's a difference bwteen a platform that is not brand new but can run with the best of them and a platform that sucks.

They should make this, if only for a short time. It wouldn't add much cost to build it I'm sure, they could get a little extra use out of Zeta before it's raped buy POS Epsilons, and in selling it for a short while there will be no problems finding buyers. I'd buy it.

[Northstar]

The Zeta's basic designs may be older, but the handling is still world class, unlike any W-Body. There's a difference bwteen a platform that is not brand new but can run with the best of them and a platform that sucks.

They should make this, if only for a short time. It wouldn't add much cost to build it I'm sure, they could get a little extra use out of Zeta before it's raped buy POS Epsilons, and in selling it for a short while there will be no problems finding buyers. I'd buy it.

Would you buy it over the Challenger?

While the Camaro is an awesome design, it still has a lot of retro cues for my tastes. This has no retro cues, obviously. It's fresh and modern. Challenger is the same as Camaro, though it's far too retro for me.

[Oracle of Delphi]

My, my! How does the truth hurt for Borger!

Doesn't hurt at all, I love my Big Prix. It does everything I need it to do, and after all, isn't that what it's all about? Will you be able to haul enough waffle mix in your Saturn when you get it? :AH-HA_wink:

Edited March 2, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[GMTruckGuy74]

Unfortunately, GM excels at managing expectations - it usually ***ps all over them

This will be another chance GM had to improve thier image that is still in the gutter because of a lack of cars that speak to the market. If they don't release this car, they are passing on a chance to greatly improve thier standing in the world.

Too many people here say that "it's all about the business, GM isn't in it just for the enthusiasts" ]<paraphrased of course>... well I say !!! If GM really cared just about the almighty $$$, then they would find a way to produce the vehicles that people are syaing they want, especially at prices that are truly affordable for the "average" American. I'm seeing plenty of brand new Nissan Altima Coupes and Honda Accord Coupes on the road here in southern in New Jersey... I can only imagine how many more are on the roads in larger states. GM's last big coupe was the Monte Carlo - a real sales success, I know I still see plenty of late '90s/early '00s Grand Prix and Grand Am coupes on the road; I fail to believe that there are people that would refuse to purchase a truly world class GM mid-size/large coupe that was also affordable. GM is really just giving up the market here, and would rather put out Epsilon cars instead. I love my AURA, but after having two Epsilons now ('04 Malibu, '07 AURA), I am not returning to this platform for my next purchase. GM needs to stop worrying about 2020's CAFE regs (okay, I realize 2011/2012 the mileage increases begin), but if these ZETA vehicles - G8 sedan/wagon/ute/coupe and GMC XT - were out now, GM would capitalze on the money they'd be bringing in plus the sales increases, and then use that money to develop better technology to keep ZETA alive (ZETA lite?) and develop ALPHA to be the best platform it can be. Anyway, this will fall on deaf ears within GM and I forsee many loyal GM owners/enthusiasts here and elsewhere not looking to GM in the future... [shrug]

[hyperv6]

When I started this thread I already knew GM had nothing formal set for this car. I was hoping to see if we could come up with any plausable ideas why they would show it.

I kind of expect they are pondering a new coupe that but on what platform? Zeta, Alpha, ??? Could they be testing the waters for a new car that is on a undetermind platform? There is something here but what is it?

It seems a little counter productive to show a car like this and not have some motive. GM has started to show cars they only intend to build in some form here. I hope this was not just some Austrailian Taunt. As for stealing Fords thunder this is not the way to do it and the 7.0 car should have done enough of that.

The Silver Camaro was on a cut up CTS could this be just testing the styling toward a new Alpha?

[Sixty8panther]

WHY GOD WHY!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?????! Why must GM tease & taunt me with ANOTHER 21st.

century hardtop I will never be able to buy?

Even IF this thing comes out we'll just see a gross ugly B-pillar & glued in glasss in

lieu of those awsome drop down rear windows!

BUT.... if, just IF maybe this and the CTS coupe end up in production... as HARDTOPS

then I might start caring about GM and be less misserable with modern cars. At that

point all you guys can enjoy your Camaro 2dr sedan (I already have TWO two-door

sedans a '77 Caddy & '59 Buick) but I might buy a gently used CTS coupe or even

a new GTO (or whatever it's called.)

[turbo200]

EP II sounds like it'll be a great platform, if GME can manage to keep the weight down, and this time actually build world-class handling into the foundation. [cue the tomatoes]

The point is GM has a great platform to use, a great rolling prototype, a simple investment, and a dearth of good cars!@#@#@#$

Good cars! They just ain't got too many good concepts out there that wow the people. The people in the real world are being wowed and wowed over and over by the other carmakers.

Edited March 2, 2008 by turbo200

[Z-06]

EP II sounds like it'll be a great platform, if GME can manage to keep the weight down, and this time actually build world-class handling into the foundation. [cue the tomatoes]

The point is GM has a great platform to use, a great rolling prototype, a simple investment, and a dearth of good cars!@#@#@#$

Good cars! They just ain't got too many good concepts out there that wow the people. The people in the real world are being wowed and wowed over and over by the other carmakers.

With the current trend of gaining girth, the current EP Malibu weighs about 3600lb, expect the EPII to weight 3800-3900 since it is being developed by Germans. That makes the difference between the FWD and RWD only 200lbs. And so much for BS of FWD better than RWD.

I honestly believe all these theories will shatter once the gas comes rolling down to $2/gallon with slumping economies.

[ZL-1]

I honestly believe all these theories will shatter once the gas comes rolling down to $2/gallon with slumping economies.

I wouldn't bet on that. Chinese and Indian economies would have to hit the brakes really hard for that to happen, and OPEC can always cut production to try and keep prices high.

Edited March 2, 2008 by ZL-1

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

im not going off on a rant, im not gonna get all fanatical.. but this is bull&#036;h&#33;... because the cars i want are being dangled in my face and this blows.. this car could be built easily, so why the hell not? ive said it before and ill say again.. f@#k new cars, im stcking with the old....

+1

Same &#036;h&#33;, different day... It's like the bad old days of the 90s all over again.

[Blake Noble]

Doesn't hurt at all, I love my Big Prix. It does everything I need it to do, and after all, isn't that what it's all about? Will you be able to haul enough waffle mix in your Saturn when you get it? :AH-HA_wink:

I fail to see a Saturn badge on this:

I think that be a bowtie there, Borger Blaster. :AH-HA_wink:

Edited March 3, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Z-06]

I wouldn't bet on that. Chinese and Indian economies would have to hit the brakes really hard for that to happen, and OPEC can always cut production to try and keep prices high.

Would anyone have imagined gas would be $1/ gallon in late 1990's and early 2000's after 1980's fuel crisis?

Not just economics, the other thing is what if there is an invention by which hydrogen becomes suddenly a viable alternative? Do you think Sheikhs and oil cos. will let their dominance let go? They can easily drop the price to $1/ gallon to thrash out the competition. The point of my remark was that if there is a change in the world energy scenario where the gas prices fall, wonder CAFE will hold its breath.

Edited March 3, 2008 by smallchevy

[ocnblu]

Mr. Jacket, that silver... automobile, is much too exciting. A person could have a heart attack! We'll have none of that now.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I fail to see a Saturn badge on this:

I think that be a bowtie there, Borger Blaster. :AH-HA_wink:

We'll see, we shall all see, Muhahahahaha! :AH-HA_wink:

[ehaase]

However, these days I'm in love with Epsilon II,

Would you like to see Epsilon II Cadillacs?

[pow]

With the current trend of gaining girth, the current EP Malibu weighs about 3600lb, expect the EPII to weight 3800-3900 since it is being developed by Germans. That makes the difference between the FWD and RWD only 200lbs. And so much for BS of FWD better than RWD.

I honestly believe all these theories will shatter once the gas comes rolling down to $2/gallon with slumping economies.

The Vectra and 9-3 are all lighter than the equivalent Malibu, AURA, or G6. The ASTRA is pretty light, and the VUE is as German as Dolsot Bi Bim Bap.

[Z-06]

The Vectra and 9-3 are all lighter than the equivalent Malibu, AURA, or G6. The ASTRA is pretty light, and the VUE is as German as Dolsot Bi Bim Bap.

9-3 has gained some girth since the MCE.

[pow]

9-3 has gained some girth since the MCE.

It's still 3200 lbs... though that figure balloons by 700 lbs if you throw in a V6, automatic transmission, AWD, extra windows for the SportCombi or extra scaffolding for the cabrio.

[Z-06]

The 9-3 is on small wheel base Epsilon. The loaded 9-3 with V-6 weighs 3570lbs. The AWD 9-3 is 3700+ lbs.

[Camino LS6]

This car should be built, and it should be sold here - even if it is only for a short time.

A brief shot of desireable models is even more important now that CAFE is coming with its attendant, boring, FWD crap. We should have a day in the sun of beautiful, desireable cars before the dark clouds obscure it all again.

Quit screwing around GM, and bring us these cars while you can!

[AAS]

This car should be built, and it should be sold here - even if it is only for a short time.

A brief shot of desireable models is even more important now that CAFE is coming with its attendant, boring, FWD crap. We should have a day in the sun of beautiful, desireable cars before the dark clouds obscure it all again.

Quit screwing around GM, and bring us these cars while you can!

Yeah, why not sell as many these types of vehicles (under current CAFE regulations) while you can?

As an aside (a thought on a possible loop-hole in regulations), does a vehicle count towards CAFE once it is manufactured, or once it is sold? What if vehicles were manufactured "new", but not sold until they were "used?" Would such a "used" vehicle count towards CAFE?

[SAmadei]

Age of the architecture has little to do with it. Your beloved Sigma (co-developed by Holden) is even older, what's your point?

I loved the old RWD G-Body architecture and its 20+ years of history. ;-)

[SAmadei]

Yeah, why not sell as many these types of vehicles (under current CAFE regulations) while you can?

As an aside (a thought on a possible loop-hole in regulations), does a vehicle count towards CAFE once it is manufactured, or once it is sold? What if vehicles were manufactured "new", but not sold until they were "used?" Would such a "used" vehicle count towards CAFE?

As far as loopholes go... let me buy it as a "body in white"... then I'll pick out a nice powerplant from the GMPP catalog... and put it in myself. As long as GMAC finances it all.

Also, I agree with the sentiment of build 'em now, why you can. That way I'll be able to buy used G8s for years. Right now the supply of old RWD G-Bods and B-Bods are getting _real_ tight. Heck, I might have to buy a couple new ones, to stock up for the 35mpg dark ages.

One other point. Knowing that GM has the ability to create a decent coupe (60 series, CTS coupe) only hurts/delays my decision to purchase a G8 sedan when it comes out. It really burns me to buy a sedan with little stubby doors when I know a coupe could be suddenly offered to the public a couple months after the ink dries on my title.

[gm4life]

Wouldn't count on it yet... Wait a year and see. Best advice I have.