Reuss: More Hybrids for Holden

[z28luvr01]

Sounds like someone just threw Zeta a life preserver:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/news/stand-by-f...0590666881.html

[K.C.]

Good deal! I hope it's not just a band aid though. A diesel would clinch things, imo.

[K.C.]

On second thought, it seems odd that GM would cancel Zeta after Zeta when they invested so much money in that architecture. I would think that GM would want to develop the platform to the fullest while the the CAFE standards are lower, then work to develop very fuel efficient powertrains such as diesel or fuel cell for future application. Hmmm.

[Camino LS6]

On second thought, it seems odd that GM would cancel Zeta after Zeta when they invested so much money in that architecture. I would think that GM would want to develop the platform to the fullest while the the CAFE standards are lower, then work to develop very fuel efficient powertrains such as diesel or fuel cell for future application. Hmmm.

That's far too logical for the powerbrokers.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Sounds like someone just threw Zeta a life preserver:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/news/stand-by-f...0590666881.html

Threw them a life preserver or just a line? :AH-HA_wink: Just take the Holden off the Holden Captiva and replace it with Chevrolet, that might be the smarter plan.

[Camino LS6]

Threw them a life preserver or just a line? :AH-HA_wink: Just take the Holden off the Holden Captiva and replace it with Chevrolet, that might be the smarter plan.

That would be almost as stupid as killing Pontiac.

[thegriffon]

No, it would as stupid as killing Opel and replacing it with Saturn. Killing Pontiac, in comparison, is brilliant.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Meanwhile, Reuss has said he is keen to see a hybrid version of the Commodore. In his former engineering role he played a part in the early development of the hybrid system that would fit the Holden. "The development of a lot of hybrid [vehicles and powertrains]has happened underneath me, so I know what [is possible]," he told reporters in Detroit.

He says a business case is yet to be established and it could a few years before a hybrid Commodore arrived in showrooms.

Hmmm...

Looks like Holden/Zeta isn't going to go down without a fight!

And what year does that line up with again? What is: 2011 FTW?!?!?!

ON A RELATED NOTE:

So, word on the street is that GM LOCKED diesels out of Zeta...

Maybe that's why they are effing with everything so much. How could they be so stupid?!?

The same source says that GMNA was very resistant to Zeta and RWD in the first place, so it looks more political than anything.

If that's the case and GMNA ends up like GME, then f*ck 'em. I hope they have fun burning in their own crash.

Edited January 20, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[VenSeattle]

So, word on the street is that GM LOCKED diesels out of Zeta...

Who develops and controls diesel technology for GM cars?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Who develops and controls diesel technology for GM cars?

Alex, I would like to answer the question for $200. Who is GM Powertrain Europe?

Edited January 20, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[VenSeattle]

Alex, I would like to answer the question for $200. Who is GM Powertrain Europe?

I'm not sure if that even qualifies for $200...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

That leads me to believe that GME has been whining about Zeta for a long time.

It's just too bad that the hybrid option is the better way to skin the cat anyway.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

That leads me to believe that GME has been whining about Zeta for a long time.

It's just too bad that the hybrid option is the better way to skin the cat anyway.

Too bad it doesn't save the Impala.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Too bad it doesn't save the Impala.

Meh... If it does come to fruition, maybe we could se a Zeta Impala a few more years down the road. Or maybe it could be called something different if a FWD Impala comes online.

The other option would be to either kill the Impala for a few years or let the W-Body soldier on for another 3 years.

[thegriffon]

That leads me to believe that GME has been whining about Zeta for a long time.

It's just too bad that the hybrid option is the better way to skin the cat anyway.

WTH has GME got against Zeta? I can understand PCS not wanting a rebadged Holden to replace the GP, but so what? Surely it's better than a rebadged Chevy (or nothing at all). And anyway how does that effect GM Europe? What competing European program gets screwed over so GMNA gets a more flexible rwd program (cheaper seems debatable if it had to be reworked by GMNA)? A house divided against itself cannot stand—having people working on the inside to eliminate brands purely out of malice and spite is industrial sabotage, pure and simple. GM cannot afford such actions. They are cutting of their nose to spite their face (especially if it involves killing Pontiac to starve Holden of product funding). If this were about Zeta being too expensive, too heavy or not flexible enough, then fine. But the way PCS puts it this is purely malice and he and others with the same motivation should be summarily dismissed and every program they have championed or undermined put under review.

[VenSeattle]

WTH has GME got against Zeta? I can understand PCS not wanting a rebadged Holden to replace the GP, but so what? Surely it's better than a rebadged Chevy (or nothing at all). And anyway how does that effect GM Europe? What competing European program gets screwed over so GMNA gets a more flexible rwd program (cheaper seems debatable if it had to be reworked by GMNA)? A house divided against itself cannot stand—having people working on the inside to eliminate brands purely out of malice and spite is industrial sabotage, pure and simple. GM cannot afford such actions. They are cutting of their nose to spite their face (especially if it involves killing Pontiac to starve Holden of product funding). If this were about Zeta being too expensive, too heavy or not flexible enough, then fine. But the way PCS puts it this is purely malice and he and others with the same motivation should be summarily dismissed and every program they have championed or undermined put under review.

In simplest terms... It's a chess game for total control. GM is consolidating its house into one global entity. The power will lie with the victor. GME is playing the game better than the rest of GM's regions. If the other regions want any say in the future (or just survive), they better start playing smarter.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

WTH has GME got against Zeta?

That it's Holden's baby, more or less.

I know it's safe to assume that's why PC-S doesn't like it. Also, there are people over at GME who have sore feelings about Holden after they decided they would sell less rebadged Opels. The VE/Zeta program was the first signs that Holden wasn't just another arm of GME (a la Vauxhall), and that Holden could be independent, but GME didn't want to lose influence in the Australian market.

There's more to it than just that, however, and I don't know the rest of the details.

In simplest terms... It's a chess game for total control. GM is consolidating its house into one global entity. The power will lie with the victor. GME is playing the game better than the rest of GM's regions. If the other regions want any say in the future (or just survive), they better start playing smarter.

Exactly.

Edited January 21, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

WTH has GME got against Zeta?

My guesses:

1) I'm willing to bet that the waters have been muddy for longer than we know. Maybe it has something to do with Opel bailing on the Zeta based Insignia a few years back.

2) I think Cadillac now wants Alpha and GME would LOVE to have a successful Cadillac line up. (Alpha would presumably be smaller)

3) Control of GM... With the increasing percentage of GM cars sold outside of America, maybe GME thinks it should lead the corporation now.

4) Increased business for their home room. If Zeta is replaced by Eps II, then that's a lot more work for GME.

5) Just plain 'ole professional jealousy... Holden is (was) the sweetheart of GMNA and Opel was, well, junk until about 5 years ago.

I can understand PCS not wanting a rebadged Holden to replace the GP, but so what? Surely it's better than a rebadged Chevy (or nothing at all). And anyway how does that effect GM Europe?

I'm not sure about PCS. I mean, I respect the guy, but for all we know he could be some middle management dude who has nothing to do with the decision making. (Much like evok, except not) Maybe he just harbors preferences, and right now the cards are going his way.

What competing European program gets screwed over so GMNA gets a more flexible rwd program (cheaper seems debatable if it had to be reworked by GMNA)?

Eps II. Not to mention Saab has gotten the sh*t end of the stick for what, 10 years now?

A house divided against itself cannot stand—having people working on the inside to eliminate brands purely out of malice and spite is industrial sabotage, pure and simple. GM cannot afford such actions. They are cutting of their nose to spite their face (especially if it involves killing Pontiac to starve Holden of product funding).

I honestly don't think it's at that point... I think the leadership at GM is far too smart to allow this level of politics to play into their plans. Sure, it's political, but I don't think it'll get that out of hand.

If this were about Zeta being too expensive, too heavy or not flexible enough, then fine. But the way PCS puts it this is purely malice and he and others with the same motivation should be summarily dismissed and every program they have championed or undermined put under review.

I agree... But what goes around, comes around. Let PCS and his crew europeanize GMNA, then watch it fall flat on it's face while Toyota and Ford eat GM's lunch. And they will, mark my words. Toyota is still a HUGE threat that will take the truck and luxury market from GM in a second if they can. And Ford is very focused, at this time, on offering the consumer exactly what they want on the car side.

[thegriffon]

The European and Korean products Holden has offered have all failed (the real reason for Holden's eroding market share), and yet it's the Commodore, the only GM car anywhere to beat Toyota on a level playing field that is being made the scapegoat. The Vectra—expensive; the Epica, well recieved and cheap enough, but still not selling; the Malibu, no RHD, possibly too big. The Astra—too expensive and no sedan; the Barina—disastrous NCAP score; Viva—outclassed; the Trailblazer, MIA, no diesel; midsize crossover, MIA. What makes you think a colapse of market share after neglecting Pontiac will stop them blaming the continued existence of Buick, GMC, and eventually Saturn ("The Saturn badges cost too much, we must instead allocate $3 billion on introducing the Opel brand!!!"). Pontiac should not die when key models still outsell rival Fords. Higher-volume Pontiacs should be used to amortize the costs developing rwd platforms for A- and B-Series Cadillacs, and underpin the premium value of Chinese Buicks (Excelle and Regal), just as Toyota uses JDM models to subsidize development of exports. Is this really so difficult to comprehend?

[thegriffon]

Sure, that's three versions instead of just one, but there is no need for it to be anything more than changes to exterior sheet-metal (just like the 9-3/BLS) and new instrument faces, vents and center console. The Chinese Buick and American Pontiac models need even less differentiation (wood instead of metal-trim inside, new badges, new grille, less sporting buckets). What you spend on the design and tooling you gain by spreading development over a wider range of products without spreading Chevy too thin.

[turbo200]

thegriffon is the voice of reason.

[ehaase]

thegriffon is the voice of reason.

But it appears that PCS is the voice of fact.

[Camino LS6]

But it appears that PCS is the voice of fact.

Some fact (often dated), and boatloads of agenda.

[Robert Hall]

But it appears that PCS is the voice of fact.

We have no idea if anything he says is fact...he may take twisted pleasure in spreading disinformation to the internet. In fact, do we really know if he really works for GM?

[Camino LS6]

We have no idea if anything he says is fact...he may take twisted pleasure in spreading disinformation to the internet. In fact, do we really know if he really works for GM?

The fact taht he works for GM is indisputable, I think.

The rest?

Well...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I think he's about 50% fact.

The rest is take it or leave it.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I think he's about 50% fact.

The rest is take it or leave it.

Of course. If PC-S were to tell us everything that goes on within the halls of GM, he would get fired. So, for every truth he gives us, there is a lie that goes with it.

That still doesn't change the fact I dislike what GME is doing, however.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

That, and me thinks that if he were a top exec (or close to it) he'd be pulling 60 hour weeks and wouldn't have enough time to be as active as he is on C&G.

Not to mention, folks inside the company would be able to identify him very easily which wouldn't be a positive scenario for a career move, given the motives he's discussed here.

[cyclonic]

Threw them a life preserver or just a line? :AH-HA_wink: Just take the Holden off the Holden Captiva and replace it with Chevrolet, that might be the smarter plan.

That comment shows complete ignorance of the Australian marketplace and the significance of the Holden brand. Though the Captiva does suck.

[Camino LS6]

That comment shows complete ignorance of the Australian marketplace and the significance of the Holden brand. Though the Captiva does suck.

PCS speaks for the more ignorant faction within GM management.

[ToniCipriani]

VE ECOmmodore anyone?

http://www.fastlane.com.au/News/Holden_ECOmmodore.htm

[cyclonic]

PCS speaks for the more ignorant faction within GM management.

I'd say PCS is just plain ignorant. Lets face it, he's just some low-level bitch who's pissed off that things don't go the way he wants. Instead he comes here, sprouts a shedload of BS agenda and tries to shoutdown anyone who doesn't agree with him. He would've been banned on many other boards years ago.

If PCS was really dedicated to GM, he'd be enthusiatic about its decisions, be working his arse off to further the company's success and try to improve the product it already has (ie; how can we adapt the Zeta platform for GME, improve on it and make it work for them? Give Opel/Vauxhall a real alternative to BMW/Audi/Mercedes in the larger car classes?). His negativity here shows that he's not interested in contributing positively, instead he's just keen to garner attention to himself. PCS the future of GM? Then GM is dead in the water.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I'd say PCS is just plain ignorant. Lets face it, he's just some low-level bitch who's pissed off that things don't go the way he wants. Instead he comes here, sprouts a shedload of BS agenda and tries to shoutdown anyone who doesn't agree with him. He would've been banned on many other boards years ago.

If PCS was really dedicated to GM, he'd be enthusiatic about its decisions, be working his arse off to further the company's success and try to improve the product it already has (ie; how can we adapt the Zeta platform for GME, improve on it and make it work for them? Give Opel/Vauxhall a real alternative to BMW/Audi/Mercedes in the larger car classes?). His negativity here shows that he's not interested in contributing positively, instead he's just keen to garner attention to himself. PCS the future of GM? Then GM is dead in the water.

I am one of the most loyal GME employees. I see what CPF says is true, the V8 will be vastly curtailed in the next few years do to CAFE and CO2 rules in Europe and the USA. The Zeta will be left behind, like the dinosaur it is. It's the wrong car for the wrong time, plain and simple. Sorry cyclonic even in GM it's the world of the fittest when it comes to product, get use to the 1.4 turbo diesels of the world, if you can't adapt to that like the dinosaurs, you will die out. Sad but true.

And even if I never post another word here, you won't be able to stop what's coming, the EU and American governments will see to that, standards have been set to which GM has agreed to.

You shouldn't be angry that you backed the wrong horse, but try to see the logic in smaller cars with smaller engines that get good horsepower, that's the wave of the future my friend, you can either ride the wave or drown. Your choice!

[Camino LS6]

I am one of the most loyal GME employees. I see what CPF says is true, the V8 will be vastly curtailed in the next few years do to CAFE and CO2 rules in Europe and the USA. The Zeta will be left behind, like the dinosaur it is. It's the wrong car for the wrong time, plain and simple. Sorry cyclonic even in GM it's the world of the fittest when it comes to product, get use to the 1.4 turbo diesels of the world, if you can't adapt to that like the dinosaurs, you will die out. Sad but true.

And even if I never post another word here, you won't be able to stop what's coming, the EU and American governments will see to that, standards have been set to which GM has agreed to.

You shouldn't be angry that you backed the wrong horse, but try to see the logic in smaller cars with smaller engines that get good horsepower, that's the wave of the future my friend, you can either ride the wave or drown. Your choice!

Bunk.

A proper, and flexible mix of product is a superior strategy.

One-size-fits-all is a losing approach.