Holden Monaro/Pontiac GTO DEAD

[Oracle of Delphi]

By BYRON MATHIOUDAKIS 16 January 2008

GENERAL MOTORS has confirmed that a VE Commodore-based Monaro is a non-starter for now, as Holden is set to lead any pending development of the smaller rear-drive Torana.

Speaking at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit, GM ‘car czar’ Bob Lutz sounded the Monaro’s death knell loud and clear.

“I think (the Monaro/Pontiac GTO) is gone for now,” Mr Lutz said.

“We’ve got nothing in the product plan right now like that. We’d like to have, but you can’t do everything.”

However, the ebullient senior GM executive then went on to raise hopes that the Holden-developed but Canadian-built Chevrolet Camaro – due to be launched globally next year – might be imported into Australia as a sort of Monaro replacement instead.

While Mr Lutz stopped short of actually announcing the Camaro for Australia (“I don’t think I should be put in a position of confirming vehicle introductions for Australia”), he did say that its basic architecture was designed from the outset for a right-hand drive configuration.

“You’ll have to ask (new Holden managing director and CEO Mark Reuss),” he teased.

“But let’s put it this way: since right-hand drive is available in the (Camaro’s VE Commodore-based Zeta) architecture, and since we would like to obviously sell some in Singapore, the UK and even the odd one in Japan, there is certainly a distinct possibility that it could be sold in Australia.”

Mr Lutz revealed that he halted the development of, or killed off, some future Zeta-based vehicles such as the Monaro and a proposed rear-wheel drive Impala V8, as GM seeks to downsize its range in order for it to meet the US Government’s new Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) legislation, which requires manufacturers to reach a fleet average of 35 miles per gallon (6.72L/100km) by 2020.

“In terms of fuel economy, that’s not the end of the market where we want to stimulate demand,” Mr Lutz explained.

“We have to find ways to stimulate demand and desirability in cars that will get us closer to the 35 MPG average.

“Because the Monaro and the (VE Commodore sedan-based Pontiac) G8 – as good as they are, and even though we can emphasise V6 engines over a V8 and at some point put in a hybrid system etc – are not going to get us to the 35 (figure).”

It is becoming clear that the ‘Alpha’ Torana – as well as SUVs that ditch the truck-base chassis for a Zeta-derived monocoque construction – might be a smarter solution to help the GM fleet meet the 2020 CAFE target.

However, Mr Lutz also warned that the future CAFE laws do not automatically green-light the Torana.

“Torana is a rear-wheel drive vehicle smaller than the Zeta architecture and smaller than the current CTS Cadillac architecture. It is, or would be, about the size of a BMW 1 Series – maybe just a tiny bit bigger to enable larger wheels.

“Now that is the architecture that has been bandied about the US press under the name of ‘Alpha Architecture’, and Alpha is still under consideration, but we haven’t kicked off any design work or any engineering work because we have to sort our way through this 35 MPG task.

“As a lightweight rear-wheel drive car that is going to add about 1MPG compared to an equivalent lightweight front-wheel drive car – we just have to sort of wait awhile and see where we are.”

Nevertheless, Mr Lutz was keen to keep Holden very much in the picture should the Torana go ahead.

“If we proceed with the Alpha Architecture, I think it is safe to say that Holden would be vitally interested in participating in that project.”

Holden in Australia is now GM’s global ‘Home Room’ for middle-to-large rear-wheel drive vehicles including sedans and utilities.

Home Room is GM-speak for the GM division that is responsible for all the development of a particular architecture.

Mr Lutz also singled out GM-DAT in South Korea as GM’s centre for light cars, Opel in Germany for small and medium-sized front-wheel drive vehicles and their derivatives, Brazil for Hummer and the United States as the Home Room for Cadillac, Corvette, the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky convertibles, and full-sized truck and utilities/SUVs.

Link: http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf...A2573D10022710D

Edited January 16, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[NOS2006]

I don't want to share my Camaro. No car should look exactly the same as the Camaro ever again. I don't want a copied Camaro badged as a Holden nonetheless.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Can't help but notice that even though the article revealed the cancellation of the Impala... the focus was on Monaro... but an exported Camaro would justify volume at Oshawa, now wouldn't it? I refuse to buy cars from GM-DAT btw if they can't improve, so I guess it'll be the Opel Derivatives or Cadillacs only please.

Edited January 16, 2008 by vonVeezelsnider

[76ChevyTrucker]

Of course I don't like hearing, reading, or otherwise learning of the Impala going to the great nether-nether, but I still like the idea of having some good rear-drive cars coming out.

[ejspecial]

I wouldn't bet against Holden doing a new Monaro despite what Bob Lutz says. I hope we do see the Camaro but it's not a Monaro replacement.

[VenSeattle]

I don't want to share my Camaro. No car should look exactly the same as the Camaro ever again. I don't want a copied Camaro badged as a Holden nonetheless.

Don't worry... if the Camaro goes to Australia, I suspect it will remain a Chevrolet and debut the Chevrolet brand into the Australian market. Kind of ingenious actually, considering the state of things to come. On that note, this might explain the potential for Chevrolet to get Alpha instead of Pontiac. It could be sold as a Chevrolet in Australia, North America, and Europe...

It is becoming clear that the ‘Alpha’ Torana – as well as SUVs that ditch the truck-base chassis for a Zeta-derived monocoque construction – might be a smarter solution to help the GM fleet meet the 2020 CAFE target.

A Zeta-based truck and an exported Camaro might fill up quite a bit of capacity at Oshawa...

[Oracle of Delphi]

Here are the important parts in cased you missed them. :AH-HA_wink:

GENERAL MOTORS has confirmed that a VE Commodore-based Monaro is a non-starter for now, as Holden is set to lead any pending development of the smaller rear-drive Torana.

Mr Lutz revealed that he halted the development of, or killed off, some future Zeta-based vehicles such as the Monaro and a proposed rear-wheel drive Impala V8, as GM seeks to downsize its range in order for it to meet the US Government’s new Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) legislation, which requires manufacturers to reach a fleet average of 35 miles per gallon (6.72L/100km) by 2020.

“In terms of fuel economy, that’s not the end of the market where we want to stimulate demand,” Mr Lutz explained.

“We have to find ways to stimulate demand and desirability in cars that will get us closer to the 35 MPG average.

“Because the Monaro and the (VE Commodore sedan-based Pontiac) G8 – as good as they are, and even though we can emphasise V6 engines over a V8 and at some point put in a hybrid system etc – are not going to get us to the 35 (figure).”

See no matter what GM does they can't get Zeta to 35 MPG!

It is becoming clear that the ‘Alpha’ Torana – as well as SUVs that ditch the truck-base chassis for a Zeta-derived monocoque construction – might be a smarter solution to help the GM fleet meet the 2020 CAFE target.

See, it's all about CAFE.

However, Mr Lutz also warned that the future CAFE laws do not automatically green-light the Torana.

Because many in GM want Cadillac to do this, that's why it's not automatically green-lighted.

“Torana is a rear-wheel drive vehicle smaller than the Zeta architecture and smaller than the current CTS Cadillac architecture. It is, or would be, about the size of a BMW 1 Series – maybe just a tiny bit bigger to enable larger wheels.

“Now that is the architecture that has been bandied about the US press under the name of ‘Alpha Architecture’, and Alpha is still under consideration, but we haven’t kicked off any design work or any engineering work because we have to sort our way through this 35 MPG task.

“As a lightweight rear-wheel drive car that is going to add about 1MPG compared to an equivalent lightweight front-wheel drive car – we just have to sort of wait awhile and see where we are.”

As a small lightweight RWD car it should be in the USA's Home Room.

Nevertheless, Mr Lutz was keen to keep Holden very much in the picture should the Torana go ahead.

“If we proceed with the Alpha Architecture, I think it is safe to say that Holden would be vitally interested in participating in that project.”

Of course they are, if they don't get Alpha, no use for Holden now is there since Zeta is going away! They see the writing on the wall.

Holden in Australia is now GM’s global ‘Home Room’ for middle-to-large rear-wheel drive vehicles including sedans and utilities.

Home Room is GM-speak for the GM division that is responsible for all the development of a particular architecture.

Mr Lutz also singled out GM-DAT in South Korea as GM’s centre for light cars, Opel in Germany for small and medium-sized front-wheel drive vehicles and their derivatives, Brazil for Hummer and the United States as the Home Room for Cadillac, Corvette, the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky convertibles, and full-sized truck and utilities/SUVs.

Again, Alpha is small, not midsize, so it should be developed in the USA along with Corvette, Solstice/Sky, that is the Home Room it belongs in, not Holden's. More on that to come! :AH-HA_wink:

[Toyota.vs.GM]

So Sigma will live on ?

[enzl]

And Alpha development work hasn't started?

[ZL-1]

So Sigma will live on ?

The way I see it it's either that, the development of a Sigma-II (perhaps it's too expensive as an alternative), or Zeta given to Cadillac and taken away from Holden in terms of further/future development of the architecture.

Edited January 16, 2008 by ZL-1

[Drew Dowdell]

Here are the dumb, not thought out, quotes in cased you missed them. :AH-HA_wink:

See no matter what GM does they can't get Zeta to 35 MPG!

See, it's all about CAFE.

For review. CAFE stands for Corporate Average Fuel Economy.

For the purposes of CAFE, a manufacturer's car output is divided into a domestic fleet (vehicles with more than 75 percent U.S., Canadian or post-NAFTA Mexican content) and a foreign fleet (everything else). Each of these fleets must separately meet the requirements.

Fuel economy calculation for alternative fuel vehicles multiplies the actual fuel used by a "Fuel Content" Factor of 0.15[15] as an incentive to develop alternative fuel vehicles.[16] Dual-fuel vehicles, such as E85 capable models, are taken as the average of this alternative fuel rating and its gasoline rate. Thus a 15 mpg dual-fuel E85 capable vehicle would be rated as 40 mpg for CAFE purposes, in spite of the fact that less than one percent of the fuel used in E85 capable vehicles is actually E85.

All GM needs to do is make every Zeta engine FlexFuel. Forget hybrid, forget hydrogen, forget fairy dust. It would cost an extra $100 per car to make them FlexFuel. CERTAINLY cheaper than spending a huge amount of money to fund development of the platform only to throw it in the dustbin. The idea that GM cannot make the ZETA up to CAFE standards is complete and utter BS beyond any shadow of any doubt. To those of you who celebrate the Zeta demise, you are shortsighted, unimaginative, and are clearly a danger to General Motors. Furthermore... unless GM is planning on having Zeta around for a W-body like amount of time, there would be two to three revisions of the platform completed by the time the 35mpg AVERAGE comes into effect. Do you think Ford was pumping out FlexFuel Tauruses and Sables in 1999 out out of the kindness of their dear sweet hearts? No, it was to raise their CAFE on the cheap.

Manufacturers are also allowed to earn CAFE "credits" in any year they exceed CAFE requirements, which they may use to offset deficiencies in other years. CAFE credits can be applied to the three years previous or three years subsequent to the year in which they are earned. The reason for this requirement is so that manufacturers are not penalized for occasionally (due to market conditions, for example) failing the targets, but only for persistent failure to meet them.

GM has LOTS of CAFE credits due to their production of FlexFuel vehicles.

Additionally

It also appears any new fuel-economy legislation will continue to offer automakers the ability to win extra CAFE credits for producing “flex-fuel” vehicles capable of running either on gasoline or E85, which is 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline –- a fuel that ostensibly reduces dependence on foreign oil and is proven to cut emissions.

Retaining flex-fuel CAFE credits reportedly was staunchly defended by many politicians. Some industry sources suggest it is the presence of the ethanol credit that has enabled several automakers -– chiefly the U.S. domestics –- to meet CAFE standards over the past several years.

The new CAFE legislation has retained the extra credit provision for FlexFuel.

In short, any argument using CAFE as a reason for canceling ANY Zeta vehicle is a complete Red Herring designed to deflect the truth about the internal political struggles inside of GM.

Edit: A 19mpg EPA combined FlexFuel Zeta <this assumes HF3.6 and similar weight to '07 CTS> would be rated at 40mpg.

[Camino LS6]

See above

[Sixty8panther]

A sad day indeed. All this bull&#036;h&#33; and atom-splicing is making me enraged.

What the F--- is the problem, why can't we have RWD for the masses, or

as it may be for a nice slice of the pie. If there's one thing I will NEVER be

able to live with in a car it's FWD. It's evil and just like a disgusting plague

it seems to be spreading uncontrolably AGAIN, just after we were told the

RWD stuff was FINALLY coming.

Esp. after reading Oldsmoboi's post I want to slap every executive at GM... stupid.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

By BYRON MATHIOUDAKIS 16 January 2008

GENERAL MOTORS has confirmed that a VE Commodore-based Monaro is a non-starter for now, as Holden is set to lead any pending development of the smaller rear-drive Torana.

Is this really news?

Last I heard, a future Monaro/GTO was just a pipe dream anyway... Nothing had ever been greenlighted, IIRC.

Speaking at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit, GM ‘car czar’ Bob Lutz sounded the Monaro’s death knell loud and clear.

“I think (the Monaro/Pontiac GTO) is gone for now,” Mr Lutz said.

For now... This could just be a hiatus until they sort the CAFE out. Remember; Bob Lutz is the same man that announced the cancellation of NA Zeta back in the day and look what happened. A lot of this could be posturing.

However, the ebullient senior GM executive then went on to raise hopes that the Holden-developed but Canadian-built Chevrolet Camaro – due to be launched globally next year – might be imported into Australia as a sort of Monaro replacement instead.

That'll NEVER work unless it remains a Chevrolet... Everyone knows that.

“You’ll have to ask (new Holden managing director and CEO Mark Reuss),” he teased.

Speaking of writing on the wall... I'm pretty sure GM wouldn't have promoted Reuss (The future GM head honcho) to Holden unless the operation had a bright future. If it didn't, they would essentially be sending their leading man into a dead end. www.notgonnahappen.com

Mr Lutz revealed that he halted the development of, or killed off, some future Zeta-based vehicles such as the Monaro and a proposed rear-wheel drive Impala V8,

This is good and bad. Zeta still exists at least and still seems to be a part of the plan. And I'm not so sure it's a bad thing to play on the side of caution right now. As many Zeta critics have warned, NOT ALL OF GM's CARS NEED TO BE BIG and/or RWD. I hate seeing some of the Zetas go more than anyone knows, *BUT* if GM is to survive, it must have a balanced portfolio. This si the same thing they've been struggling with for 15 years now. I would love to see a RWD Impala, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't sell the volume it sells now (I think this factored in more than CAFE) The public has a positive image of the car and with a redesign, (Remember, the current car dates back at least to MS2000 W-Body) I'm betting fleet sales will be replaced with retail share.

Not to mention, it might conflict with Buick some... And I'd rather see Buick stay alive than see Chevrolet pad it's pockets with 50,000 or so more sales.

My main concern right now is Pontiac. Pontiac needs a future, badly. Zeta could still be it; after all, what exactly will Cadillac ride on in the years to come?

I don't really buy the idea that Zeta can't get to 35 MPG or close. Unless it either 1) is as heavy as lead -or- 2) Is chock full of 6.2L 19 MPG V8s. There is absolutely NO reason why the 3.6L couldn't be used in the program along with diesels and hybrids.

As for Alpha: I'm fine with it on a few conditions 1) I can fit my 6'9"/350 ass in it (Something I can't do with Kappa) 2) It offers V8s and 3) It is given to Pontiac and/or Holden, where it belongs. Cadillac can use it, but they need not develop it.

as GM seeks to downsize its range in order for it to meet the US Government’s new Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) legislation, which requires manufacturers to reach a fleet average of 35 miles per gallon (6.72L/100km) by 2020.

I still think GM is overreacting.

“In terms of fuel economy, that’s not the end of the market where we want to stimulate demand,” Mr Lutz explained.

Sure it is... You can innovate or limit quantity which will benefit GM either way.

“We have to find ways to stimulate demand and desirability in cars that will get us closer to the 35 MPG average.

And that's the fukt up part. 1) The market will dictate what it wants, even if it means not buying new. 2) It's Washingtons problem to solve, not bankrupt Detroits. 3) It'll never happen in the numbers that some hope for.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

“Because the Monaro and the (VE Commodore sedan-based Pontiac) G8 – as good as they are, and even though we can emphasise V6 engines over a V8 and at some point put in a hybrid system etc – are not going to get us to the 35 (figure).”

I don't really understand why... If anything, you need to be worrying about the trucks. But see, instead GM seems to be taking the easy way out. Screw the enthusiasts for the sake of truck sales instead of actually innovating and balancing the portfolio.

It is becoming clear that the ‘Alpha’ Torana – as well as SUVs that ditch the truck-base chassis for a Zeta-derived monocoque construction – might be a smarter solution to help the GM fleet meet the 2020 CAFE target.

More proof that Zeta is very much alive.

“Now that is the architecture that has been bandied about the US press under the name of ‘Alpha Architecture’, and Alpha is still under consideration, but we haven’t kicked off any design work or any engineering work because we have to sort our way through this 35 MPG task.

If that is indeed the case (which I think it isn't) then it is very bad news.

Mr Lutz also singled out GM-DAT in South Korea as GM’s centre for light cars,

Make 'em nicer and better built.

Opel in Germany for small and medium-sized front-wheel drive vehicles and their derivatives,

Naturally

Brazil for Hummer

Umm, what?!?! Welp, there goes the Hummer franchise...

and the United States as the Home Room for Cadillac, Corvette, the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky convertibles, and full-sized truck and utilities/SUVs.

Or, basically, everything that will supposedly die in 7-8 years.

As far as Sigma... I guess Cadillac could continue to update it (I like the idea that it is Cadillac exclusive, or maybe could become Buick and Cadillac exclusive) as long as it doesn't get dated, which I fear it will/is.

[Toyota.vs.GM]

.

All GM needs to do is make every Zeta engine FlexFuel. Forget hybrid, forget hydrogen, forget fairy dust. It would cost an extra $100 per car to make them FlexFuel. CERTAINLY cheaper than spending a huge amount of money to fund development of the platform only to throw it in the dustbin. The idea that GM cannot make the ZETA up to CAFE standards is complete and utter BS beyond any shadow of any doubt. To those of you who celebrate the Zeta demise, you are shortsighted, unimaginative, and are clearly a danger to General Motors. Furthermore... unless GM is planning on having Zeta around for a W-body like amount of time, there would be two to three revisions of the platform completed by the time the 35mpg AVERAGE comes into effect. Do you think Ford was pumping out FlexFuel Tauruses and Sables in 1999 out out of the kindness of their dear sweet hearts? No, it was to raise their CAFE on the cheap.

GM has LOTS of CAFE credits due to their production of FlexFuel vehicles.

Additionally

The new CAFE legislation has retained the extra credit provision for FlexFuel.

In short, any argument using CAFE as a reason for canceling ANY Zeta vehicle is a complete Red Herring designed to deflect the truth about the internal political struggles inside of GM.

Those tax credits goes bye-bye after 2019.

[Camino LS6]

And Alpha development work hasn't started?

Of course not, in a fashion typical of the bad old GM, these yo-yos within the company want to waste all of the development money used for zeta by not bringing the cars to market. At the same time they yammer-on about Alpha which is already late and , if ever finished, will come to a very different market they simply can't yet have any good assessment of.

This one time, you and I see this the same way. The idiots are taking over at GM, and a new cycle of foolishness begins.

GM: take your corporate head out of the sand before it is too late!

It is time to make decisions and actually stick to them. If you decide on a new architecture with its attendant lines of models, build the damn thing before it becomes irrelevant! No more delays, reassessments, and shifting priorities - get the damn job done while it still matters. We should all be driving these cars by now, and Alpha should be well into development. Your problem isn't CAFE, nor currency fluctuation, it is vacillation, delay, and a lack of expedient design to market process.

In other words, you are too damn slow!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

In other words, you are too damn slow!

And too damn tepid.

[Drew Dowdell]

Those tax credits goes bye-bye after 2019.

Are you expecting GM will run the Zeta platform for 14 years?

[Chazman]

And Alpha development work hasn't started?

It's started, but on a very small scale.

I'd imagine it will accelerate and expand any minute now.

[Z-06]

Are you expecting GM will run the Zeta platform for 14 years?

W body is a living legend.

[Drew Dowdell]

W body is a living legend.

I'm hoping GM has learned from that mistake.

[Lamar]

For review. CAFE stands for Corporate Average Fuel Economy.

All GM needs to do is make every Zeta engine FlexFuel. Forget hybrid, forget hydrogen, forget fairy dust. It would cost an extra $100 per car to make them FlexFuel. CERTAINLY cheaper than spending a huge amount of money to fund development of the platform only to throw it in the dustbin. The idea that GM cannot make the ZETA up to CAFE standards is complete and utter BS beyond any shadow of any doubt. To those of you who celebrate the Zeta demise, you are shortsighted, unimaginative, and are clearly a danger to General Motors. Furthermore... unless GM is planning on having Zeta around for a W-body like amount of time, there would be two to three revisions of the platform completed by the time the 35mpg AVERAGE comes into effect. Do you think Ford was pumping out FlexFuel Tauruses and Sables in 1999 out out of the kindness of their dear sweet hearts? No, it was to raise their CAFE on the cheap.

GM has LOTS of CAFE credits due to their production of FlexFuel vehicles.

Additionally

The new CAFE legislation has retained the extra credit provision for FlexFuel.

In short, any argument using CAFE as a reason for canceling ANY Zeta vehicle is a complete Red Herring designed to deflect the truth about the internal political struggles inside of GM.

Edit: A 19mpg EPA combined FlexFuel Zeta <this assumes HF3.6 and similar weight to '07 CTS> would be rated at 40mpg.

Loopholes are not only great, they're the American Way.

The only drawback to your post is that it would probably mean much more to GM product development if E85 were more widely available.

[GMTruckGuy74]

Damn, damn, damn!!! What the is wrong with GM? I'm just waiting for the announcement that all of these sissified changes are being made because Toyota bought GM.

I think I better get myself a G8 or Camaro if I want to have a brand new, RWD, V8-powered vehicle before they become as extinct as the dinosaurs.

[regfootball]

A sad day indeed. All this bull&#036;h&#33; and atom-splicing is making me enraged.

What the F--- is the problem, why can't we have RWD for the masses, or

as it may be for a nice slice of the pie. If there's one thing I will NEVER be

able to live with in a car it's FWD. It's evil and just like a disgusting plague

it seems to be spreading uncontrolably AGAIN, just after we were told the

RWD stuff was FINALLY coming.

Esp. after reading Oldsmoboi's post I want to slap every executive at GM... stupid.

yeah, and they won't give us hardtops either.....

j/k.

i sure hope chevy doesn't export the camaro to AU with the crap interior it has planned.....the aussies won't put up with that cheeseball interior.

no GTO=big mistake IMHO.

THIS DOES, however, open the door to FIREBIRD. FIRE CHICKENS UNITE!

Edited January 16, 2008 by regfootball

[SuperSport623]

i hate to say it but

tick f@#kin tock

[hyperv6]

No one here should be suprised at this as this web site is about as informed as any out there.

We knew the Impala RWD was a no show for Detroit and on the bubble.

We knew The GTO was not on Solid ground and not likely.

We knew the new CAFE standard threw most plans out the window.

We knew that Scott Settlemire said about 2 weeks ago the Camaro was going to be exported.

We also saw in the past the Camaro if exported would most likely remain a Camaro.

While this is not good news for the Zeta and many new cars short term it is good to see GM react now and not years from now when it is to late.

We still have a good shot of RWD car on the Alpha that will be lighter which will still give us performance and better handling and braking.

We will now have a Camaro sold world wide that will give it better volume and a better shot at being a 6th gen on a Alpha later. This may have just extended the Camaro's life.

The plain fact is we knew the CAFE was coming as did GM and neither of us are happy. All you can do is start plans right now to better place GM in the market as the mileage crunch time arrives. We will have performance in the future but we will have to learn new ways of dealing with it.

GM is not the only one to face this and all companies need to react. Ford is well on the way to phase out the V8 in cars and some trucks. Gm can if they prepare now make gains in the market place with this upheavel.

We have been hit with the end of the world a few times before. Did anyone back in 1981 ever expect to see a ZR1 like we just go?

How would you like to be a product planner tight now? So many Choices and each one could sink you if your wrong!

[Camino LS6]

Problem is, in many ways they are wrong if all this crap is to be believed.

They do this, and I'm on strike.

[knightfan26917]

*sighs*

At least Lutz added "for now"...........

Maybe hope is out there?

*pauses*

Yeah, not so sure 'bout that anymore....

Cort:34swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve&pacemaker

CDshowcase=www.WRMN1410.com*SATURDAY.january19*2p-5p.and.8p-11p.CENTRAL

"I'm fading away" ... Simple Plan ... 'Untitled'

[Guest YellowJacket894]

They do this, and I'm on strike.

+1

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I don't think anyone will be "phasing out the V8" altogether. (If they do, I doubt I'll buy anything new either)

That's just overreacting.

I would actually like to see the performance cars (Camaro/GTO) on Alpha, given 2 things: 1) I'm able to fit comfortably in them and 2) They offer a V8. I will never buy something like a Camaro or GTO with anything less.

[SuperSport623]

FOG, my only fear of camaro going alpha is lack of V8's... otherwise, for a pony car, a smaller, lighter, more agile platform is perfect

[hyperv6]

Unless something changes only trucks, Cadillac and the Vette may have a V8. Ford even has pondered a Tubo 6 for the F 150.

The changes to make 35 MPG are real unless the goverment flinches. There is not sign of that.

The fact is we still will have 300 HP 4 cylinders and 400+ HP out of some V6 engines. If some of the diehards can get over the stigma of 2 less cylinders we will have some very respectable performance cars available.

Some of the most powerful F1 and group B cars to date were only small displacment 4 and 6 cylinder cars with well over 1000 HP. They had to kill them because they were getting too powerful for their series.

Besides future cars will not be 4000 pounds and less weight is more performance.

[Camino LS6]

Unless something changes only trucks, Cadillac and the Vette may have a V8. Ford even has pondered a Tubo 6 for the F 150.

The changes to make 35 MPG are real unless the goverment flinches. There is not sign of that.

The fact is we still will have 300 HP 4 cylinders and 400+ HP out of some V6 engines. If some of the diehards can get over the stigma of 2 less cylinders we will have some very respectable performance cars available.

Some of the most powerful F1 and group B cars to date were only small displacment 4 and 6 cylinder cars with well over 1000 HP. They had to kill them because they were getting too powerful for their series.

Besides future cars will not be 4000 pounds and less weight is more performance.

In street driving, horsepower doesn't really mean all that much. But torque does and 4s and 6s can't match a V8 in that department.

New or old, I'll still be driving a V8.

[Intrepidation]

Let's not forget the sound a V8 makes that no other cylinder count engine can match.

[daves87rs]

I have a feeling things are going to get pretty crazy..and a lot worse.

Our recession, soon to really skyrocketing gas prices (just watch)..and like 20 new Companies coming to the US in the next few years?

And you guys are worried about a V f***KIN 8?

We are going to be very lucky if we all are not driving small SMART cars....

I don't mean to be an asshole, but you guys really need to look at the outside influences here. I mean really look.

How do you guys think GM is going to get the money for this? Selling more trucks, maybe?

And this is not just a problem at GM-it is going to be a problem at all the automakers........

As much as I would love a few Zetas here, I would much rather still have a choice of what I can drive (with what's left/availible)

I think these cars will come back....after the automakers have adjusted to all the changes....

I would love to be mad a GM, but it it isn't really their fault..and years of being behind has not made them strong enough to handle all these changes with any grace.......

Being a car lover is going to &#036;h&#33;ty the next few years.....

*end rant*.....

[K.C.]

There's no reason that a Zeta based car cannot get good mileage, upwards of 30 mpg. The technology is here, and more is coming, so Zeta may be down, but its not out. I don't think it will be out.

[vonVeezelsnider]

At the end of the day, as long as GM can offer me at least a Malibu/Aura sized car with a V6, I'm happy... I'd even settle for a I4 if it's refined enough, but I prefer a V6.

Edited January 18, 2008 by vonVeezelsnider

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I don't think it will be out.

And it probably isn't.

I think we must learn to take what PCS says with at least a small grain of salt. He works for GM, after all. It could partially be him blowing a little smoke. Remember, we have never gotten official mention from Lutz before this that a Monaro/GTO was in the works. Want proof that these two cars weren't going to happen in the first place? Well, these comments from Alan Bately, in charge of sales and marketing at Holden, had this to say a few months back.

"At this moment in time, honestly, we don’t have that on the drawing board and you won’t be hearing any announcement from us in the next few months on that because there isn’t any to be made.

"We think there is a demand for a Monaro, but you have to set your priorities – your engineering, how much resources you have got and where you want to spend your money."

Here's the link to the article that I pulled that from.

One of the primary reasons for the Monaro/GTO not coming is because that capacity at the Aussie VE plant is going to be maxed out between building the various Commodore variants for Australia and the two G8 variants for North America (then there is the GMC/Holden Crewman/Caballero on top of that which we've known about for months now). There won't be enough space to add a Monaro/G8 coupe (GTO? get real; if a Monaro was, in fact, in the cards, it would come here as a G8 coupe and add to that model's portfolio, as it would cut costs that a GTO sheetmetal change would call for).

Guys, don't get your panties in a bunch (just snoop around a little like I do to unwind them a little ). These two cars were never really on the table in the first place.

Edited January 18, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[FloydHendershot]

Let's not forget the sound a V8 makes that no other cylinder count engine can match.

V12s make nice noises too. As do 10's.

[SuperSport623]

V12s make nice noises too. As do 10's.

not the way a V8 sounds...

Edited January 18, 2008 by SuperSport623

[Chazman]

Remember, we have never gotten official mention from Lutz before this that a Monaro/GTO was in the works. Want proof that these two cars weren't going to happen in the first place?

The GTO has been dead since 12/05.

[Oracle of Delphi]

The GTO has been dead since 12/05.

Actually there was work being done to have that car built in North American along side the Holden Monaro, which would have been shipped back to Australia. But that work has now ceased.

[Camino LS6]

A sad state of affairs.

[Chazman]

Actually there was work being done to have that car built in North American along side the Holden Monaro, which would have been shipped back to Australia. But that work has now ceased.

When you say "work", do you mean discussions? Because all the work on GMX282 stopped in NA in Dec. of '05. And any hope of a GTO was pretty much dead by spring of '06. I think Holden had pressed for a Monaro abit longer than that. But by that time Pontiac had moved on to their Zeta "4 door coupe" concept which never gained any traction. At any rate, when the Camaro was approved, it pretty much sucked all of the Zeta coupe oxygen out of the room.

I guess a more interesting question today would be.....

How long before GM puts Camaro on something other than Zeta?

[Robert Hall]

When you say "work", do you mean discussions? Because all the work on GMX282 stopped in NA in Dec. of '05. And any hope of a GTO was pretty much dead by spring of '06. I think Holden had pressed for a Monaro abit longer than that. But by that time Pontiac had moved on to their Zeta "4 door coupe" concept which never gained any traction. At any rate, when the Camaro was approved, it pretty much sucked all of the Zeta coupe oxygen out of the room.

I guess a more interesting question today would be.....

How long before GM puts Camaro on something other than Zeta?

You figure the Zeta Camaro will have a 5 year run at least... so after that, the Camaro could be Alpha or Epsilon II?

[SuperSport623]

You figure the Zeta Camaro will have a 5 year run at least... so after that, the Camaro could be Alpha or Epsilon II?

Camaro on alpha? fine as long as V8s are available

Camaro on EPII?

NO!

GM is smarter then a FWD Camaro... even if its the most sophisticated Camaro yet, if theres no driveshaft, i will forever turn my back on GM....

that sent a baaaad chill through me

[Camino LS6]

Just a hunch, but I think if you watch for a Holden concept debut at the Melbourne show, you may see the dimensions of the next Camaro.

[Chazman]

You figure the Zeta Camaro will have a 5 year run at least... so after that, the Camaro could be Alpha or Epsilon II?

Well, put it like this....

The whole business plan for Camaro and Oshawa was for, oh say, 300,000 Zetas to roll off the assembly line annually. Now, it's looking like Camaro may be the only NA Zeta remaining. Ouch!

Zeta has had a weight problem from day number one. If Camaro comes in too heavy, (which has been suggested), how long before GM feels that it might be incompatible with new CAFE requirements? Just saying, IF.

Beyond that, Camaro will require a freshening after 3 years - by that time it's styling will have been in the public eye for 6 years, plus I don't think retro interiors have a very long shelf life. Would you spend this money on a dying architecture, or fold it into the next gen?

And...although, some conceptual work has been done on Alpha over the past couple of years, off and on, I think work will renew on it with earnest now. It would make business sense to try to merge Camaro with that program - assuming there even is a next Camaro.

Of course, although Alpha's focus will be based around 4 cylinder and perhaps 6 cylinder engines, I personally would like to see a provision for a V8 on a possible future Camaro.

Edited January 18, 2008 by Chazman

[Camino LS6]

A V8 is required for any Alpha Camaro to have credibility.