Oath on Qur'an: Provocation or act of faith?

[regfootball]

Star Tribune

well, here's a topic for ya........

Oath on Qur'an: Provocation or act of faith?

The choice by Keith Ellison, the first Muslim in the U.S. House, to take his oath of office on his faith's holy book, has stirred a debate.

Rob Hotakainen, Star Tribune

WASHINGTON - Rep.-elect Keith Ellison's decision to take his oath of office on the Qur'an is stirring a debate among academics and conservatives, with some of them saying it's only appropriate to take an oath on the Bible.

The Minnesota Democrat says that the Constitution gives him the right to use the Muslim holy book, and that is what he intends to do on Jan. 4.

"Mr. Ellison, America, not you, decides on what book its public servants take their oath," radio talk show host and author Dennis Prager wrote in his online column this week. He said that American Jews routinely have taken their oath on the Bible, even though they don't believe in the New Testament, and that if Ellison refuses to do so, "don't serve in Congress."

But Eugene Volokh, a professor of law at the University of California, Los Angeles, said the Constitution authorizes people not to swear their oath at all, protecting atheists and agnostics.

"Why would Muslims and others not be equally protected?" he wrote for National Review Online.

Ellison, who told the Star Tribune shortly after his election victory that he planned to use the Qur'an, was attending meetings in Washington on Thursday and could not be reached for comment, according to Dave Colling, his spokesman. But Ellison defended his plan to use the Qur'an, Islam's holiest book, in an interview with Abdi Aynte, a reporter from Minneapolis who writes for the Minnesota Monitor, an independently produced political news blog.

"The Constitution guarantees for everyone to take the oath of office on whichever book they prefer," Ellison was quoted as saying. "And that's what the freedom of religion is all about."

Ellison's decision drew support from one prominent conservative firebrand, Colorado Rep. Tom Tancredo, who champions a fence along the border with Mexico and who says that unfettered immigration endangers American culture.

"He wants to take his oath on the Qur'an, that's fine," Tancredo said. "I think whatever you believe is necessary for you to uphold your obligations to the Constitution, that is fine with me."

In his weekly column, Prager said Ellison's act is "an act of hubris that perfectly exemplifies multiculturalist activism." He warned that allowing Ellison to use the Qur'an could pave the way for a racist to use "his favorite book" to take the oath of office.

"When all elected officials take their oaths of office with their hands on the very same book, they all affirm that some unifying value system underlies American civilization," Prager wrote. "If Keith Ellison is allowed to change that, he will be doing more damage to the unity of America and to the value system that has formed this country than the terrorists of 9/11. It is hard to believe that this is the legacy most Muslim-Americans want to bequeath to America."

Ellison is the first Muslim in the nation, and the first black person from Minnesota, to become a member of the U.S. House. His campaign and election have attracted national attention because of his groundbreaking status.

Five years after 9/11 and with the ongoing raw debate about clashing civilizations and Islamic extremism, Ellison downplayed the role of religion in his drive for office. He nonetheless has acknowledged that his election has thrust him into position as a spokesman for Islam in the United States.

In the National Review, Volokh noted that two former presidents -- Franklin Pierce and Herbert Hoover -- didn't swear their oath but chose to affirm it.

He said that the Supreme Court has long held that Americans have the right to be treated equally, regardless of their religion, and that forcing Ellison to use the Bible would violate his rights.

"Letting Christians swear the oath of office, while allowing members of other denominations only to swear what ends up being a mockery of an oath -- a religious ceremony appealing to a religious belief system that they do not share -- would be [discriminatory]," Volokh wrote.

Said Ron Eibensteiner, former state Republican Party chairman: "It doesn't matter if he wants to be sworn in on the Qur'an; that's perfectly fine. We have in this country freedom of religion and free speech."

Tammy Lee, who ran against Ellison as an Independent in the Fifth Congressional District, agreed. "This country was founded on principles of freedom of religion. Our Constitution guarantees it, and as a newly elected member of Congress who's going to uphold the Constitution, he has every right to choose what religious traditions he wants to practice."

Radio talk show host Dan Barreiro said he has been "a bit bewildered" by the concern expressed, mainly on blogs, about Ellison's choice. The topic came up Thursday on his afternoon show on KFAN. "The general consensus I got was that most people were not terrified at the prospect that this was something that he might do," Barreiro said.

"Certainly there is no law that mandates that a person put their hand on a Bible as any kind of litmus test of their loyalty to the country," he added.

In 2003, Minnesota Sen. Norm Coleman, who is Jewish, was sworn in with a Bible given to him by a priest who is a friend of the family. The late Minnesota Sen. Paul Wellstone, who also was Jewish, was sworn in in 1991 with a Bible from his wife Sheila's family.

hehe Barreiro is getting quoted in the Strib news now...LOL

Edited December 1, 2006 by regfootball

[FAPTurbo]

If he swore on the Bible, it would be blasphemy to his religion, and it would in effect, be blasphemous to mine.

Being a Catholic, I believe he has every right to swear on his own religions book. That is how it should be. His not swearing on the Bible only strengthens America and its constitution.

[avant1963]

And being Atheist, I believe you should not have to swear on a bible at all. I doubt a politician has EVER tried that recently. Freedom of religion also means freedom FROM religion.

There should be NO controversy about this, but asshole of CNN Glenn Beck asked the representative-elect, "prove to me you are not working with the terrorists." This country will never leave the stone-age with bigots like that on TV.

[Camino LS6]

And being Atheist, I believe you should not have to swear on a bible at all.  I doubt a politician has EVER tried that recently.  Freedom of religion also means freedom FROM religion.

There should be NO controversy about this, but asshole of CNN Glenn Beck asked the representative-elect, "prove to me you are not working with the terrorists."  This country will never leave the stone-age with bigots like that on TV.

222589[/snapback]

100% correct.

[CARBIZ]

I am an atheist and I DON'T CARE.

What I do care about is the way the Western world tears itself apart with stupid debates like this while the Muslim world and China laughs at us.

We are going to become victims of our own political correctness. In our desperate attempts to please EVERYONE we are going to end up pleasing NO ONE and destroy our way of life in the process.

You do not read about or hear these kind of debates in Beijing or Tehran.

[Drew Dowdell]

There is no law, what so ever, that requires any elected official to swear on any specific book at all. He could have been sworn in with his hands in his pockets, or on Mein Kampf, or while making shadow bunnies. I think that swearing on the book that one holds most sacred is appropriate, and in this case that would be the Quran.

but.... ponder this, would 68 get sworn into office using a GM Parts manual?

[Robert Hall]

And being Atheist, I believe you should not have to swear on a bible at all.  I doubt a politician has EVER tried that recently.  Freedom of religion also means freedom FROM religion.

222589[/snapback]

Agreed..as a secular humanist/atheist/functional realist, I think people need to keep their religous beliefs to themselves, IMHO..it has no place in public life...

If I were sworn into office, I'd swear on a tome like Donald Knuth's 'The Art of Computer Programming, Vol. I' or a calculus book..things I consider to contain the truth.

[Camino LS6]

They should all swear on Richard Bach's Illusions :AH-HA_wink:

[aaaantoine]

A great deal of politicians are already atheists or non-practicing Christians (atheists in essence). Should it make ANY difference to them if a Muslim wishes to take his oath on the Qur'an?

[Drew Dowdell]

My Mom used to read this book to me and now I read it to my young cousins. If I get elected to office, this is so what I'm being sworn in with.

222656[/snapback]

i remember this book

[Brandon Lutz]

I see no problem with it. He should be able to swear his oath on the book that represents his faith. It makes no sense for him to swear on the bible when his not of a Christian denomination.

[regfootball]

i listened to the discussion on the radio about this the other day.

the only constitutional requirement is that you TAKE an oath. it doesn't require you to lay your hand on a book. Only that you take an oath. If you violate your sworn oath, you are then commiting perjury.

[Enzora]

Meh, religious displays in the government are mostly for show anyway, a way to appease the masses. Personally, I'd rather see them all swear an oath upon the Constitution, since that's the religion I'm expecting them to uphold.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

And being Atheist, I believe you should not have to swear on a bible at all.  I doubt a politician has EVER tried that recently.  Freedom of religion also means freedom FROM religion.

There should be NO controversy about this, but asshole of CNN Glenn Beck asked the representative-elect, "prove to me you are not working with the terrorists."  This country will never leave the stone-age with bigots like that on TV.

Agreed.

[Camino LS6]

Meh, religious displays in the government are mostly for show anyway, a way to appease the masses.  Personally, I'd rather see them all swear an oath upon the Constitution, since that's the religion I'm expecting them to uphold.

222770[/snapback]

Quoted for truth.

[Variance]

Some people constantly forget about that little "seperation of church and state" thing. Particularly in instances far more serious than this but I won't go down that road here...

[razoredge]

Meh, religious displays in the government are mostly for show anyway, a way to appease the masses.  Personally, I'd rather see them all swear an oath upon the Constitution, since that's the religion I'm expecting them to uphold.

222770[/snapback]

Ah.........YEA !............Imagine that

"no, no we cant do that ! "

I say on their hands and knees, bow before the public that writes their paycheck, one hand on the constitution the other on an anvil with me........the hammer man and a 10 lb sledge hanging over my back........just to give 'em something to think about.

Edited December 2, 2006 by razoredge

[razoredge]

as for this clown in the topic.....??????..........I say just shoot him and be done with it ... or give him the opportunity to go fight for freedom for his own kind in say...........Iraq

whats fair is fair

and that is truely how I feel

We dont need some middle easterner handed the keys to our country on behalf of a "politically correct" election opportunity that wants to further his cause by making some kind of monumental history moment using a faith book that has been and is the source of centuries of cowardly terrorist violence and cost this country personally great sums of money and grief

I see this no different than burning LA because of Rodney King...then

letting OJ Simpson go for a brutal double murder

Execute Sadam, kills Iraqies, kill Afganistanies, hunt down Oh Sama, fortunes on security, fortunes on aggressive defence ...

then elect one of their kind and let them swear on their bloody F'in book as a blanket to say "we dont want you to take it personally...so here..."

NO WAY ! and I dont give two hoots about the "bible" either but I do know that...this!... what brought us to what this country is today was mostly accomplished by mostly "God fearin' " Bible believin' people that were proud to be Americans. Even those that werent "bible fearing" were proud to be Americans and would be brought to swear on the bible in Court "so help you God" or if for a political office and would pledge to the flag "one nation under God !" and would bere coin in their pockets that would bere the saying "in God we trust". ALL FOR GOOD REASON !

Believers in the "quran" have done nothing but try to destroy the ideals that brought us to these times. Now they are capitolising on it.......go check out the law suits.

So what now ? are we ready to bere coin that says "in allah we trust"...cause if so....ah...Id like to know why...what event happened that showed us allah and his followers were now trustable ? And if they are........who cares...go back to your country, your place of origion, that you so apparently love and show us what your made of, make it happen like our forefathers did here, make us proud. Dont make our country your next holy proving ground, while your own people struggle back in your "promised land"....typical cowardly middle eastern ploy

predjudice ? in this case, you damn well bet I am !

If he was any kind of man, truely trying to prove something "just", he would refuse to be sworn on any holy book and make the statement to all sides that "all those books have ever brought the world was senceless blood shed and terror" !

I would say excuse me to those with their jaws hanging right now, but that would be a lie. Im so sick of this baby ass nonsense over the petty crap and am still waiting for someone to stand up and make a stand over the real problems confronting man kinds future and it sure as hell aint some stupid book to swear on, or medical advancements, who gave who head, community planning, where to allow gambling, planet exploration or rights to have or not have children........

[ocnblu]

Let him swear on the Qur'an (or however they're spelling it these days). Religious freedom should mean just that. Who the hell cares? This is stupid.

[Variance]

as for this clown in the topic.....??????..........I say just shoot him and be done with it ... or give him the opportunity to go fight for freedom for his own kind in say...........Iraq

whats fair is fair

and that is truely how I feel 

We dont need some middle easterner handed the keys to our country on behalf of a "politically correct" election opportunity that wants to further his cause by making some kind of monumental history moment using a faith book that has been and is the source of centuries of cowardly terrorist violence and cost this country personally great sums of money and grief

I see this no different than burning LA because of Rodney King...then

letting OJ Simpson go for a brutal double murder

Execute Sadam, kills Iraqies, kill Afganistanies, hunt down Oh Sama, fortunes on security, fortunes on aggressive defence ...

then elect one of their kind and let them swear on their bloody F'in book as a blanket to say "we dont want you to take it personally...so here..."

NO WAY ! and I dont give two hoots about the "bible" either but I do know that...this!... what brought us to what this country is today was mostly accomplished by mostly "God fearin' " Bible believin' people that were proud to be Americans. Even those that werent "bible fearing" were proud to be Americans and would be brought to swear on the bible in Court "so help you God" or if for a political office and would pledge to the flag "one nation under God !" and would bere coin in their pockets that would bere the saying "in God we trust". ALL FOR GOOD REASON !

Believers in the "quran" have done nothing but try to destroy the ideals that brought us to these times. Now they are capitolising on it.......go check out the law suits.

So what now ? are we ready to bere coin that says "in allah we trust"...cause if so....ah...Id like to know why...what event happened that showed us allah and his followers were now trustable ? And if they are........who cares...go back to your country, your place of origion, that you so apparently love and show us what your made of, make it happen like our forefathers did here, make us proud. Dont make our country your next holy proving ground, while your own people struggle back in your "promised land"....typical cowardly middle eastern ploy

predjudice ? in this case, you damn well bet I am !

If he was any kind of man, truely trying to prove something "just", he would refuse to be sworn on any holy book and make the statement to all sides that "all those books have ever brought the world was senceless blood shed and terror" !

I would say excuse me to those with their jaws hanging right now, but that would be a lie. Im so sick of this baby ass nonsense over the petty crap and am still waiting for someone to stand up and make a stand over the real problems confronting man kinds future and it sure as hell aint some stupid book to swear on, or medical advancements, who gave who head, community planning, where to allow gambling,  planet exploration or rights to have or not have children........

222923[/snapback]

You know, if you wonder why people get pissed at you, this is a great example.

[razoredge]

I dont wonder why people get pissed at me........its because they cant see though it, they cant see beyond the method to realize the message. They cling to a few sentences and cant let it free, ignoring the reality of the total picture. I dont have time for the petty crap being made the latest big deal while the real problems go unchecked.

Not a problem, Im fully aware and confident of both my strenght and weakness

...........is our government ?

[z28luvr01]

I don't think it's a case of being politically correct as it is making the guy swear on something that he holds near and dear. The Quran is his belief system of choice, so let him swear on it. Making him swear on a Bible is about as useless as making him swear on a Betty Crocker cookbook, the Yellow Pages, or the owner's manual for a Dell Dimension 4100.

[pow]

as for this clown in the topic.....??????..........I say just shoot him and be done with it ... or give him the opportunity to go fight for freedom for his own kind in say...........Iraq

whats fair is fair

and that is truely how I feel 

We dont need some middle easterner handed the keys to our country on behalf of a "politically correct" election opportunity that wants to further his cause by making some kind of monumental history moment using a faith book that has been and is the source of centuries of cowardly terrorist violence and cost this country personally great sums of money and grief

I see this no different than burning LA because of Rodney King...then

letting OJ Simpson go for a brutal double murder

Execute Sadam, kills Iraqies, kill Afganistanies, hunt down Oh Sama, fortunes on security, fortunes on aggressive defence ...

then elect one of their kind and let them swear on their bloody F'in book as a blanket to say "we dont want you to take it personally...so here..."

NO WAY ! and I dont give two hoots about the "bible" either but I do know that...this!... what brought us to what this country is today was mostly accomplished by mostly "God fearin' " Bible believin' people that were proud to be Americans. Even those that werent "bible fearing" were proud to be Americans and would be brought to swear on the bible in Court "so help you God" or if for a political office and would pledge to the flag "one nation under God !" and would bere coin in their pockets that would bere the saying "in God we trust". ALL FOR GOOD REASON !

Believers in the "quran" have done nothing but try to destroy the ideals that brought us to these times. Now they are capitolising on it.......go check out the law suits.

So what now ? are we ready to bere coin that says "in allah we trust"...cause if so....ah...Id like to know why...what event happened that showed us allah and his followers were now trustable ? And if they are........who cares...go back to your country, your place of origion, that you so apparently love and show us what your made of, make it happen like our forefathers did here, make us proud. Dont make our country your next holy proving ground, while your own people struggle back in your "promised land"....typical cowardly middle eastern ploy

predjudice ? in this case, you damn well bet I am !

If he was any kind of man, truely trying to prove something "just", he would refuse to be sworn on any holy book and make the statement to all sides that "all those books have ever brought the world was senceless blood shed and terror" !

I would say excuse me to those with their jaws hanging right now, but that would be a lie. Im so sick of this baby ass nonsense over the petty crap and am still waiting for someone to stand up and make a stand over the real problems confronting man kinds future and it sure as hell aint some stupid book to swear on, or medical advancements, who gave who head, community planning, where to allow gambling,  planet exploration or rights to have or not have children........

222923[/snapback]

You don't even know the guy, and already you're making judgments on him (and ~6 million or so other Muslim Americans)???

Ellison was born in Detroit to American parents, so he was never "some middle easterner handed the keys to our country on behalf of a 'politically correct' election opportunity."

It's you, your own personal predjudices and your own arrogance, that prevents you from seeing reality. Try seeing Muslim Americans as human beings (just like you and us; yes, really!), and don't form hatred as a result of your poor exposure.

[FAPTurbo]

I don't think he has plans on committing jihad on our asses anytime soon, or making our women wear burqas.

In fact, I think he resents extremism even more than we all do combined.

[avant1963]

I think I just read that Razor only wants White Anglo Saxon that believe in his god to run the government. That's the most bigoted thing I've read. I think you need to go back to Fox news and get more talking points.

And just a fun fact: Saying in Allah We Trust is the same EXACT thing as saying God. Just another word for it. Thought I'd let you know.

Only the people that fear YOUR God should be heard. That's not the country my family risked their lives to protect. Maybe you need to move to somewhere else that is more restricted in letting religion run the country. I have some suggestions: Iran, Afghanistan or maybe just join Al Qaeda - I hear they are very strict with only letting people that believe their religion join.

Believe me when I say that region is what is killing the human race. It is the cause of most, if not all, wars. It causes rational people to become irrational. It stops scientific progress. It shuns the natural truth for a work of fiction. It breeds hate and intolerance for people that are "different" than yourselves.

You don't need fear of an invisible old man that floats in the sky to have morals and be kind to those around you and help those who are less fortunate than you. When was the last time the "Wear Religion on your Sleeve" party (Republicans) did something for the poor, or hell, the middle class? Isn't that what Jesus taught?

I believe in Freedom - I think you can worship anything you want, God, Jesus, a tin can. But don't force it on me, don't force me or my kids to pray, or swear on a bible. Believe me, as evil as I think religion can be, I believe in freedom of religion and would never stop anyone from having "faith". That's the difference between you and me.

[avant1963]

Oh, and I wanted to break this down, since much of what you point out is new to this country:

Even those that werent "bible fearing" were proud to be Americans and would be brought to swear on the bible in Court "so help you God" or if for a political office

Physically placing ones hand on a Bible and swearing an oath is not required nor was it ever legally enforceable. The court gives those giving testimony the option of "swearing an oath" or making an affirmation to tell the truth as to the best of their knowledge.

and would pledge to the flag "one nation under God !"

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer

and would bere coin in their pockets that would bere the saying "in God we trust".

IN GOD WE TRUST first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin.

Paper currency was first issued with "In God We Trust" as required by Congress in 1955. The inscription appears on all currency Series 1963 and beyond.

[Drew Dowdell]

He wasn't handed the keys to the country, he was handed the keys to a U.S. House of representatives district office in Michigan.

just sayin...

[Cory Wolfe]

And being Atheist, I believe you should not have to swear on a bible at all.  I doubt a politician has EVER tried that recently.  Freedom of religion also means freedom FROM religion.

There should be NO controversy about this, but asshole of CNN Glenn Beck asked the representative-elect, "prove to me you are not working with the terrorists."  This country will never leave the stone-age with bigots like that on TV.

222589[/snapback]

*agrees*

Agreed..as a secular humanist/atheist/functional realist, I think people need to keep their religous beliefs to themselves, IMHO..it has no place in public life...

If I were sworn into office, I'd swear on a tome like Donald Knuth's 'The Art of Computer Programming, Vol. I' or a calculus book..things I consider to contain the truth.

222658[/snapback]

*agrees*

Meh, religious displays in the government are mostly for show anyway, a way to appease the masses.  Personally, I'd rather see them all swear an oath upon the Constitution, since that's the religion I'm expecting them to uphold.

222770[/snapback]

*agrees*

I think I just read that Razor only wants White Anglo Saxon that believe in his god to run the government.  That's the most bigoted thing I've read.  I think you need to go back to Fox news and get more talking points.

And just a fun fact:  Saying in Allah We Trust is the same EXACT thing as saying God.  Just another word for it.  Thought I'd let you know.

Only the people that fear YOUR God should be heard.  That's not the country my family risked their lives to protect.  Maybe you need to move to somewhere else that is more restricted in letting religion run the country.  I have some suggestions: Iran, Afghanistan or maybe just join Al Qaeda - I hear they are very strict with only letting people that believe their religion join.

Believe me when I say that region is what is killing the human race.  It is the cause of most, if not all, wars.  It causes rational people to become irrational.  It stops scientific progress.  It shuns the natural truth for a work of fiction.  It breeds hate and intolerance for people that are "different" than yourselves. 

You don't need fear of an invisible old man that floats in the sky to have morals and be kind to those around you and help those who are less fortunate than you.  When was the last time the "Wear Religion on your Sleeve" party (Republicans) did something for the poor, or hell, the middle class?  Isn't that what Jesus taught?

I believe in Freedom - I think you can worship anything you want, God, Jesus, a tin can.  But don't force it on me, don't force me or my kids to pray, or swear on a bible.  Believe me, as evil as I think religion can be, I believe in freedom of religion and would never stop anyone from having "faith".  That's the difference between you and me.

223052[/snapback]

*agrees*

"God... is not real.

He is an imaginary "savoir" for people's weaknesses.

Satan... is not real.

He is an imaginary "scapegoat" for people's problems.

There is no heaven.

There is no hell.

People are intelligent creatures, but not always enough so for reality.

The smart ones fool the stupid.

The stupid ones beleive the smart.

Next thing you know... we have religion... wars over religion.

Quite simply.. we have stupiditiy over religion."

[Satty]

Would people be offended if I took an oath for public office while getting a handjob from L Ron Hubbard?

[CARBIZ]

I don't care which version of ancient "holy" texts are sworn to, they are all equally silly, IMO. The ancients had deities for every leaf in a tree. The Greeks/Romans narrowed it down to a couple dozen divine beings, temper tantrums and all. The Jews decided one God was all we needed to cover our asses.

Some day, hopefully soon, we can dispense with this silliness altogether and stop needing a divine being's power to convince us we are worthy.

As to the Fox News comments: I agree that watching those tirades gets a bit tedious, but speaking as someone who has lived in and around the Toronto area for most of my 45 years on this planet, I have watched this city change drastically - and not for the better. I am all for immigration, but what I see happening this past 10 years or so is not immigration it is INVASION.

My school pictures were great: of a class of 30, there were about 20 or so "Europeans," including Greeks and Italians, 4 or 5 Asians, a couple of Hindus. Black people were fairly rare then. Now, both schools I walk my dog past every day (one highschool and one grade school) are virtually ALL Asian. The Catholic school is ENTIRELY Philipino. My parents' highschool where they went in the late 1950s, is entirely black and Muslim. I am not exaggerating. You can stand at the fence and not see a European face for long minutes.

I think where Fox news is coming from, is where will all this end? We in the West are commiting cultural suicide, and speaking from Darwins' point of view, that is against Nature in a very big way.

Am I being racist for even mentioning this? By the media wing-nuts on the Cultural Left's standards, yes I am. I do believe that the U.S. and Canada were made great by the contributions of many nations, who mixed together and built our two great countries; however, with $5 phone cards, global internet connections, $1,000 plane trips to any where in the world, and the rise of the "immigration industries" in our two countries, our current crop of immigrants have no incentives to acclimatize to our nations. In fact, currently in Canada they are encouraged NOT to become Canadian. We will even pay for their cultural centers and organizations to lobby Ottawa on their behalf.

With their higher birth rates and increased immigration, any statician will tell you that we are being completely over run. This is not like the waves of poor Jews and Ukranians who flooded New York and other cities 100 years ago. This is entirely different.

Am I being paranoid? Am I a racist? I would vehemently deny both those charges. My ex-boyfriend was of African/white parentage. My favorite aunt is black. I dated a guy from Hong Kong 5 years ago.

I am pro-Canadian, not anti-immigrant. If they come here and force us to change our values, then what will be around for future generations to enjoy?

[razoredge]

I think I just read that Razor only wants White Anglo Saxon that believe in his god to run the government.  That's the most bigoted thing I've read.  I think you need to go back to Fox news and get more talking points.

And just a fun fact:  Saying in Allah We Trust is the same EXACT thing as saying God.  Just another word for it.  Thought I'd let you know.

Only the people that fear YOUR God should be heard.  That's not the country my family risked their lives to protect.  Maybe you need to move to somewhere else that is more restricted in letting religion run the country.  I have some suggestions: Iran, Afghanistan or maybe just join Al Qaeda - I hear they are very strict with only letting people that believe their religion join.

Believe me when I say that region is what is killing the human race.  It is the cause of most, if not all, wars.  It causes rational people to become irrational.  It stops scientific progress.  It shuns the natural truth for a work of fiction.  It breeds hate and intolerance for people that are "different" than yourselves. 

You don't need fear of an invisible old man that floats in the sky to have morals and be kind to those around you and help those who are less fortunate than you.  When was the last time the "Wear Religion on your Sleeve" party (Republicans) did something for the poor, or hell, the middle class?  Isn't that what Jesus taught?

I believe in Freedom - I think you can worship anything you want, God, Jesus, a tin can.  But don't force it on me, don't force me or my kids to pray, or swear on a bible.  Believe me, as evil as I think religion can be, I believe in freedom of religion and would never stop anyone from having "faith".  That's the difference between you and me.

223052[/snapback]

This is exactly what I was talking about. Most of your post said the same exact thing as my post.

you said

"Believe me when I say that region is what is killing the human race. It is the cause of most, if not all, wars. It causes rational people to become irrational. It stops scientific progress. It shuns the natural truth for a work of fiction. It breeds hate and intolerance for people that are "different" than yourselves.

You don't need fear of an invisible old man that floats in the sky to have morals and be kind to those around you and help those who are less fortunate than you. When was the last time the "Wear Religion on your Sleeve" party (Republicans) did something for the poor, or hell, the middle class? Isn't that what Jesus taught?"

I said

"If he was any kind of man, truely trying to prove something "just", he would refuse to be sworn on any holy book and make the statement to all sides that "all those books have ever brought the world was senceless blood shed and terror" !

However this is true

"I think I just read that Razor only wants White Anglo Saxon that believe in his god to run the government. That's the most bigoted thing I've read. I think you need to go back to Fox news and get more talking points."

except...I have no god and I dont watch or read any news, seriously none what so ever. I dont want to hear about it or see it. Read this again

" Im so sick of this baby ass nonsense over the petty crap and am still waiting for someone to stand up and make a stand over the real problems confronting man kinds future and it sure as hell aint some stupid book to swear on, or medical advancements, who gave who head, community planning, where to allow gambling, planet exploration or rights to have or not have children........"

related to my "news watching" means I'm tired of hearing about the nonsence AND the serious stuff, because nothing ever gets done or changes, due to all focus being placed on this petty crap. Someone wanting to push the issue like this guy and his kind he feels the need to make some "statement" for.

and of course I want my country run by my kind, does that make me any different from any other country, or better yet any different from any other nationality or gender within this country. Once again the double standards. Its OK for the woman to want some woman to run the show. Its OK for the blacks to want the blacks to run the show, its alright for the Muslims to want the Muslims to run the show......but whitey dont wanna be wantin whitey, you know the ones that fought, died, sweat and bleed for this country to run the show...no no that kind of whitey is a "bigot" but not the feminaz, not the blacks, not the hispanics, not the muslims...only whitey qualifies for "bigot"

then there is this

"Saying in Allah We Trust is the same EXACT thing as saying God. Just another word for it. Thought I'd let you know."

FIrst I did know, as I know most all ancient belief systems believe in one creator. but the gem of this statement is God/Allah - same exact thing - then whats this guys problem ? and whats everyone elses problem ? then why the heck have these people been staining the desert sand crimson red for centuries ? If these no difference.

this country was settled by Christians seeking religious freedom to follow what ever corrupted translation of the bible they interpreted. When the wrote freedom of religion into the constitution they did not have allah, budah or what ever else on the brain.

when they wrote freedom of speach into the constitution they did not have MTV, or rap "stars" on the brain, it would have been unspeakable, unthinkable what peoples verbal abuse would have turned into today.

when the wrote right to bare arms they were not expecting gang bang drive bys and children shooting children. In fact it was the right to protect ones self and family or make a stand for fair & rightous beliefs as was done in the Revolution... all things that are illegal today so that right went straight to the sewer anyhow.

people need to get over the contitution crutch everyone clings to to justify everything

you said this

" I believe in Freedom - I think you can worship anything you want, God, Jesus, a tin can. But don't force it on me, don't force me or my kids"

but then there is this

"Ellison downplayed the role of religion in his drive for office. He nonetheless has acknowledged that his election has thrust him into position as a spokesman for Islam in the United States."

seems to me someones trying to force some issues on people here. Like I said he should just refuse any "book" if hes any kind of man. Instead it is clearly a ploy to push the envelope one step further, leaning on a constitution written 200 years ago by people who are rolling in their graves at the state of things today.

But it still boils down to this. This country and its government in its present state was settled and founded and formed by Christians and Christian beliefs. Christians of many religous sectors, but still Christians. In this country we do things in the name of God and follow the teachings of the new testement, whether we even know it or not. What little morals we have left today were derieved from what is percieved as the teachings of Jesus and the old testaments 10 commandments.

and allah taught what again ? and his followers created what kind of society again ?

[Cadillacfan]

as for this clown in the topic.....??????..........I say just shoot him and be done with it ... or give him the opportunity to go fight for freedom for his own kind in say...........Iraq

whats fair is fair

and that is truely how I feel 

We dont need some middle easterner handed the keys to our country on behalf of a "politically correct" election opportunity that wants to further his cause by making some kind of monumental history moment using a faith book that has been and is the source of centuries of cowardly terrorist violence and cost this country personally great sums of money and grief

I see this no different than burning LA because of Rodney King...then

letting OJ Simpson go for a brutal double murder

Execute Sadam, kills Iraqies, kill Afganistanies, hunt down Oh Sama, fortunes on security, fortunes on aggressive defence ...

then elect one of their kind and let them swear on their bloody F'in book as a blanket to say "we dont want you to take it personally...so here..."

NO WAY ! and I dont give two hoots about the "bible" either but I do know that...this!... what brought us to what this country is today was mostly accomplished by mostly "God fearin' " Bible believin' people that were proud to be Americans. Even those that werent "bible fearing" were proud to be Americans and would be brought to swear on the bible in Court "so help you God" or if for a political office and would pledge to the flag "one nation under God !" and would bere coin in their pockets that would bere the saying "in God we trust". ALL FOR GOOD REASON !

Believers in the "quran" have done nothing but try to destroy the ideals that brought us to these times. Now they are capitolising on it.......go check out the law suits.

So what now ? are we ready to bere coin that says "in allah we trust"...cause if so....ah...Id like to know why...what event happened that showed us allah and his followers were now trustable ? And if they are........who cares...go back to your country, your place of origion, that you so apparently love and show us what your made of, make it happen like our forefathers did here, make us proud. Dont make our country your next holy proving ground, while your own people struggle back in your "promised land"....typical cowardly middle eastern ploy

predjudice ? in this case, you damn well bet I am !

If he was any kind of man, truely trying to prove something "just", he would refuse to be sworn on any holy book and make the statement to all sides that "all those books have ever brought the world was senceless blood shed and terror" !

I would say excuse me to those with their jaws hanging right now, but that would be a lie. Im so sick of this baby ass nonsense over the petty crap and am still waiting for someone to stand up and make a stand over the real problems confronting man kinds future and it sure as hell aint some stupid book to swear on, or medical advancements, who gave who head, community planning, where to allow gambling,  planet exploration or rights to have or not have children........

222923[/snapback]

Wow, I've never known someone to be so uninformed. You're entitled to your opinion but I think you need to seriously need to get out and travel the world or read some history books to get another perspective. The world is coming together whether you like it or not. If you can't accept other people's beliefs or keep believing the stereotypes that all muslims are terrorists bent on world domination, you'll be a very lonely person.

[aaaantoine]

"God... is not real.

He is an imaginary "savoir" for people's weaknesses.

Satan... is not real.

He is an imaginary "scapegoat" for people's problems.

There is no heaven.

There is no hell.

223089[/snapback]

You state the above like it's fact. How do you know this is the case? Because someone told you it is?

People are intelligent creatures, but not always enough so for reality.

The smart ones fool the stupid.

The stupid ones beleive the smart.

Next thing you know... we have religion... wars over religion.

Quite simply.. we have stupiditiy over religion."

223089[/snapback]

I can't speak for Islam as I have never read the Qur'an. But I can tell you now that the teachings of Christianity absolutely do NOT condone violence. Anyone who believes otherwise is either warping the scriptures or is reacting to hearsay. And anyone who commits violence in the name of Christianity is a sinner.

[Drew Dowdell]

Would people be offended if I took an oath for public office while getting a handjob from L Ron Hubbard?

223097[/snapback]

I think people would have an issue with it...... since he's dead and all.

[Satty]

I think people would have an issue with it...... since he's dead and all.

223164[/snapback]

Or is he.......

[Drew Dowdell]

if he's not.... it's time for a clambake.

[Cory Wolfe]

You state the above like it's fact.  How do you know this is the case?  Because someone told you it is?

I can't speak for Islam as I have never read the Qur'an.  But I can tell you now that the teachings of Christianity absolutely do NOT condone violence.  Anyone who believes otherwise is either warping the scriptures or is reacting to hearsay.  And anyone who commits violence in the name of Christianity is a sinner.

223149[/snapback]

I'm not stating anything as fact, just quoting something I once heard and happen to believe.

[Satty]

if he's not.... it's time for a clambake.

223168[/snapback]

Why would you want to place the female genetalia in a oven?

[Drew Dowdell]

Why would you want to place the female genetalia in a oven?

223176[/snapback]

I'm gay... duh!

[Satty]

So would you take an oath on a Brokeback Mountain dvd?

[Drew Dowdell]

no, never even seen the movie

I like the earlier idea of taking the oath on the Constitution. I think that will be my choice when I run for office.

[ocnblu]

This thread has morphed (it was dangerously close from the first post), and it now breaks a rule of The Lounge. Religion is too close to people's hearts to discuss for any length of time before things tend to get ugly.

We haven't had an underwear thread in a while.

[Satty]

Ok then ocn, what underwear would you wear if you wetre to take an oath?

[FAPTurbo]

Boxers or Briefs?

[Robert Hall]

Boxers or Briefs?

223192[/snapback]

Boxers..

[Chris_Doane]

I would guess 'blu goes with the man-thong for his oath. Just cos it would be "naughty."

[ocnblu]

Well, I honestly cannot answer this question, myself, as I go commando all year. Even when taking oaths. Butt-floss thongs are gross, even on the best looking guys, imo. Edited December 2, 2006 by ocnblu

[razoredge]

I didnt wear underwear from the time I was 18 until about 25 by which time my balls were hanging near my knees..........thus explaining one of my problems........

[razoredge]

I dint wear underware during this period so as I would always be ready to bake some female genetalia.............

[FAPTurbo]

Well, I honestly cannot answer this question, myself, as I go commando all year.  Even when taking oaths.  Butt-floss thongs are gross, even on the best looking guys, imo.

223204[/snapback]

Britney?...