Northstar replacment predictions

[intrigued]

So when do you think the next northstar will come out and what do you think it will be rated at? The HO 3.6 got a 25 hp boost from new heads and some better breathing. its said to get up to a 15 percent power increase from DI.

that 25 hp from the new head is about a 10 percent increase and with a 15 percent Di bump the 275 hp 3.6 would put out an impressive 316hp.

So a better breathing northstar with a 10 percent boost would be 352 hp and that increased by 15 percent by DI would be 405 hp. Thats pretty high and I would love to see that out of an NA northstar in the "new" STS but I dont think thats going to happen or be quite that high when it does come out. What do you guys predict.

[dado]

i don't think that the next v8 (probably ultra) will have over 400 hp in N.A. form. If we are talking same displacement , 4.6 l. it will probably have somewhere between 360-380 hp. But if GM go higher in displacement, which is possibility that v8 will have more displacement levels, than there is a chance to see engine with over 400 hp N.A..and with F.I. who knows? 550-600 hp. We will see ...probably in 2009

[transtech105]

i don't think that  the next v8 (probably ultra) will have over 400 hp in N.A. form. If we are talking same displacement , 4.6 l. it will probably have somewhere between 360-380 hp. But if GM go higher in displacement, which is possibility that v8 will have more displacement levels, than there is a chance to see engine with over 400 hp N.A..and with F.I. who knows? 550-600 hp. We will see ...probably in 2009

210401[/snapback]

[transtech105]

Being a gm tech.I hope they get rid of the oversized/weighted northstar.awful to

work on,expensive to repair(under statement).The most oil leak prone engine we

make.The 5.3 in the w cars is a tried and true motor.problem is no more 4t80-e-I heard that it is on it's way out.No other trans is built

to handle the high torque requirements.I don't think the 4t65-e in the impala ss

will hold up to the power.The af33 in the equinox is bulletproof and is also a

possible 7 speed with a new valve body(look it up!).Problem with the 5.3 V-8 is

the cadillac customer won't want a pickup motor in their caddy spaceship.

Any thoughts.

[jasaero]

I am guessing that it will be ~380hp and mostly just have VVT and DI features added like they added to the 3.6L DI. Think the VVT could probably use some more adjustability on the N* as I think the 3.6L has a bit more exhaust cam phasing capability than the N*?? They are similar engines though so I am sure the injector placement for DI would be similar on the N*, but there would be 2 more of them. If they tweaked all these things I think that 380hp would be reasonably easy. With DI on the N* I would hope they moved to turbo's instead of the superchargers on the N*'s for the V's. Doubt that will happen, but it would be preferable. As for the Tech, I agree 100%, but peeps that drive BMW's, MB's, Audi's, and Lexus's are used to the butter smooth idle and high revving nature of SOHC and DOHC engines and have the impression that the OHV engines are less refined. I prefer a larger displacement OHV myself, but do have to agree they are less smooth and refined. I think the LS engines are probably the most refined engines in the world from an engineering and manufacturing stand point, but from an end users percieved smoothness and vibration standpoint they loose out. The LS makes more power with less weight and less engine compartment room, while using similar or less fuel under many conditions. I figure if GM moved the LS to a dual cam in block OHV with 3 valves per cylinder they could probably make them even more competitive and get emissions to the same point as any DOHC engine.

[CreativeVision]

Being a gm tech.I hope they get rid of the oversized/weighted northstar.awful to

work on,expensive to repair(under statement).The most oil leak prone engine we

make.The 5.3 in the w cars is a tried and true motor.problem is no more 4t80-e-I heard that it is on it's way out.No other trans is built

to handle the high torque requirements.I don't think the 4t65-e in the impala ss

will hold up to the power.The af33 in the equinox is bulletproof and is also a

possible 7 speed with a new valve body(look it up!).Problem with the 5.3 V-8 is

the cadillac customer won't want a pickup motor in their caddy spaceship.

Any thoughts.

213183[/snapback]

Are you referring to the 4.6 Northstar in the Lucerne here? Was considering a Lucerne, but maybe I need to rethink this...

[aldw]

The Ultra V8 can't come fast enough, the sooner it comes the better Caddy's competitiveness grows.

[bcs296]

Are you referring to the 4.6 Northstar in the Lucerne here?  Was considering a Lucerne, but maybe I need to rethink this...

229217[/snapback]

I suggest you avoid taking this guy's comments too seriously. Since its introduction, the Northstar has had its warts but most live long, trouble free lives.

The issues have been worked out over the past 14 years (ugh) and today's Northstars in the Lucerne, DTS, and RWD Caddies are very reliable.

Back on topic, I really hope GM does some serious work to the Northstar to bring its power to higher levels. When the Northstar debuted in 1993, it simply blew all of its competition out of the water. I was always hoping that when the RWD Northstar came out in '04, it would repeat the blowout that occured back in '93 but unfortunately it was only a 20hp bump, proving to be "good enough" to be competitive.

Come on, GM. The competition is pumping 360, 380hp these days and I know 4.6 liters has more in it. Let's see at least 360+.

Edited December 21, 2006 by bcs296

[dwightlooi]

I think that GM should consider building at least one line of premium cars around the LL8 Inline-6 (aka Vortec 4200) instead of either the Northstar or LSx V8s or the 3.6 VVT.

The reason is simple -- it is smoother than any of these 8-potters and it's different from whats being offered by the rest of the pack. More cylinders doesn't always produce a smoother engine. Sure you have more power pulses in closer proximity, but that isn't the biggest contributing factor to a refined and smooth engine -- vibrations is. Think about it for a second. Is a V8 at 3000 rpm less smooth than the same V8 at 4000 rpm? How about an I4? Is it less smooth at 2400 rpm vs 3200 rpm? The answer is no. The Inline-6 is one of the few engine configurations that's completely balanced in terms of both 1st and 2nd order forces -- only horizontally opposed engines and V12s can claim the same. Neither the I4 (2nd order vibrations on the vertical plane at twice the rotational frequency), any degree V6es (end to end rocking moments at the rotational frequency) nor V8s (smaller than I4 but nonetheless present 2nd order vibrations on the vertical plane at twice the rotational frequency), can claim the same inherent perfect balance as an Inline-6. This is why the straight six is legendary for its creamy smoothness in the BMWs and is also the configuration of choice for very large displacement diesels in big rig trucks.

The LL8 is already a modern all aluminum engine. It makes a decent 290-ish hp as is. It is smooth as silk as is. For the next generation engine where DI and dual VVT are expected, it is inherently less complicated to implement these features on an I6 where you have just one cylinder head, one fuel rail and two camshafts, instead of a V8 with twice as many of these. The 4.2 liter displacement is also in the sweet spot of its own. Big enough to produce 300~340 hp and 290~320 lb-ft with the aforementioned technology, but not so big that it becomes too big an engine. This torque bracket can also be handled by the smaller, lighter and more efficient 6L50 6-speed auto instead of the heavier and less efficient 6L80 6-speed auto. If more power is needed, a pair of KKK K04s, Mitsubishi TD04-15TK or Garrett GT20 turbos will create a motor that will blow the BMW N52 turbo in the 335i out of the water. A 4.2 Dual-VVT DI Inline-6 with a pair of any of the above turbos will be able to put out about 500 hp @ 5250~6200 rpm with 500 lb-ft available from 2000~5250 rpm. Thats good enough to build a super car or super sedan out of.

The big straight six has a lot to offer -- sweet spot performance bracket, ease of advance technology integration, unparalleled natural smoothness and unique market positioning. I think GM should really give it a good look.

Edited December 31, 2006 by dwightlooi

[Paolino]

I think that GM should consider building at least one line of premium cars around the LL8 Inline-6 (aka Vortec 4200) instead of either the Northstar or LSx V8s or the 3.6 VVT.

The reason is simple -- it is smoother than any of these 8-potters and it's different from whats being offered by the rest of the pack. More cylinders doesn't always produce a smoother engine. Sure you have more power pulses in closer proximity, but that isn't the biggest contributing factor to a refined and smooth engine -- vibrations is. Think about it for a second. Is a V8 at 3000 rpm less smooth than the same V8 at 4000 rpm? How about an I4? Is it less smooth at 2400 rpm vs 3200 rpm? The answer is no. The Inline-6 is one of the few engine configurations that's completely balanced in terms of both 1st and 2nd order forces -- only horizontally opposed engines and V12s can claim the same. Neither the I4 (2nd order vibrations on the vertical plane at twice the rotational frequency), any degree V6es (end to end rocking moments at the rotational frequency) nor V8s (smaller than I4 but nonetheless present 2nd order vibrations on the vertical plane at twice the rotational frequency), can claim the same inherent perfect balance as an Inline-6. This is why the straight six is legendary for its creamy smoothness in the BMWs and is also the configuration of choice for very large displacement diesels in big rig trucks.

The LL8 is already a modern all aluminum engine. It makes a decent 290-ish hp as is. It is smooth as silk as is. For the next generation engine where DI and dual VVT are expected, it is inherently less complicated to implement these features on an I6 where you have just one cylinder head, one fuel rail and two camshafts, instead of a V8 with twice as many of these. The 4.2 liter displacement is also in the sweet spot of its own. Big enough to produce 300~340 hp and 290~320 lb-ft with the aforementioned technology, but not so big that it becomes too big an engine. This torque bracket can also be handled by the smaller, lighter and more efficient 6L50 6-speed auto instead of the heavier and less efficient 6L80 6-speed auto. If more power is needed, a pair of KKK K04s, Mitsubishi TD04-15TK or Garrett GT20 turbos will create a motor that will blow the BMW N52 turbo in the 335i out of the water. A 4.2 Dual-VVT DI Inline-6 with a pair of any of the above turbos will be able to put out about 500 hp @ 5250~6200 rpm with 500 lb-ft available from 2000~5250 rpm. Thats good enough to build a super car or super sedan out of.

The big straight six has a lot to offer -- sweet spot performance bracket, ease of advance technology integration, unparalleled natural smoothness and unique market positioning. I think GM should really give it a good look.

Yes, but as Honda has proved, with the Acura RL, people really want an 8 when it comes to luxury.

[dwightlooi]

Yes, but as Honda has proved, with the Acura RL, people really want an 8 when it comes to luxury.

The difference is that the 3.5 RL has just another V6 in a market crowed full of V6es. So you can it doesn't have the product differentiaton part of the equation. And, it was neither particularly big (3.5L) nor particularly powerful (225hp initially) nor can it claim to be smoother than a V8. In addition, like the previous caddies, the RL was a nose heavy, understeering FWD car that was not particularly inspiring to drive and not exactly up to Lexus standards in silent plushness.

A 4.2 liter Straight Six oozing all the latest tevchnology, pumping out ~350hp, pushing ~300 lb-ft and turning the rear wheels is a whole different animal -- especially when it is probably smoother and more turbine like than ANY V8 can hope to be. If anyone ever needs a reminder as to the creamy smoothness possible only with an Inline-Sixunless you move up to a V12 all they have to do is drive a BMW 6-potter then drive one their V8s... the BMW straight sixes beat their V8s in smoothness.

[76ChevyTrucker]

I agree with on the smoothness of an I6 powerplant, they only problem with the 4200 is that its a TALL engine (and my utter disdain for turbochargers). There needs to be a replacement for the NorthStar series of engines, and unfortunately the 4.2L I6 will not be in that lineup.