GM Death Watch 94

[Northstar]

If he's so obviously in the wrong, then prove it. You spend plenty of time proving, or at least attempting to, how Wagoner is in the wrong? Can't you spend one post proving how guionM is so obviously in the wrong?

If you don't post why, and only post that he is, it doesn't prove anything.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Let me just address one statement to Dollinger here: you are not an automotive industry expert. You don't understand what really makes a good product. And you most certainly don't understand how to run a company.

Every point that guionM posted, I believe as the truth. And not just because he posted it, either -- it's because I've read it more than once.

Buickman's obsession with Wagoner and his hate for GM is downright unhealthy. And it's scary, too. Most people -- and it doesn't matter if you're an enthusiast or not -- would have moved on a long, long time ago. So why haven't you Dollinger?

Straighten up and learn the truth, Dollinger: you are one person. You are not some god that GM is going to bow down to at your whim. You had your chance to be on the GM executive board, but you turned it down to satisfy your greed and ego. Your opinions are not worth the paper or sites you put them on.

Instead of just playing the same old rap, why don't you try -- and I mean really try -- to convince someone that you have a valid point? As of now, the only thing you do heckle someone who proves you wrong.

And quit branding yourself as "The Voice." It's annoying.

These forums are better off without your presence, Dollinger. I ask you to pack up your $h! and hit the road.

[roadwarrior]

Everyone who disagrees with you and or sees through your act is just a blind follower, yet you and your "Plan to save GM" is the only thing that "can" save GM.

Fortunately, it seems people here are begining to think for themselves and once again, you bring up that tired old "Blind Follower" flag.

Everyone and their brother inside GM, inside OEMs (Original Equiptment Manufacturers for those who don't know), and people outside of both who have above average math comprehension and a room tempreature IQ have all either attempted to explain things to you, or attempted to focus your efforts into a more constructive or helpful direction. In short, you've pretty much s*itted on them.

Recapping for those who haven't had the pleasure of knowing who Buickman is,

1. His name is Jim Dollenger. He's made a tidy living selling Buicks to GM employees and retirees up in Michigan.

2. He fancies himself an expert on how the car industry operates. As a salesman, he believes it's not the product that's important, it's the sales. In short, if it ain't selling, it's the way it's being sold, not that someone else has a better product, or the market is changing.

3. He created some multi point plan he's been hawking for longer than I can remember. He posted it a few times, and invited constructive criticism, then proceeded to either ignore, ridicule, or act condesending to everyone who took up his offer.

4. He attempted to sell this plan to GM for millions of dollars. GM offered him a corperate position to implement his "plan". He refused and demanded the money. GM understandably showed him the door.

5. He's been on this anti Rick Wagoner and GM board of directors rampage, and created his GM Deathwatch website as his own little self aggrandizing shrine to himself. Of course, every anti-GM person flocks to this place. It also has plenty of "testimonials" from so called believers in his "Plan to save GM".

6. This past year, he has advocated Delphi workers to go on strike, specifically so he could damage GM. He went in to GM's annual stockholders meeting and made a complete a** of himself by calling the CEO names, & insulting the board of directors and creating a disturbance... of course, earning an ejection from the gathering.

7. He used this little stint of his to say that he was tossed out because GM was trying to "silence him" because he had plans to "save" GM, and they didn't want to listen to him.

If there's anyone left on this website that might be tempted to actually believe him and his sincerity in saving GM, ask yourself:

1. Why do you only hear from him when he wants to slam GM?

2. Why can't he go more than a few posts without showing a disturbing and alarming hatred for Rick Wagoner in particular?

3. Where is he when there's good GM news to report, and why does he never give GM credit?

4. Bob Lutz is the most respected car executive in the business. He has worked at Ford, BMW, Mercedes, Ford Europe, essentially ran Chrysler, and has forgotten more about cars the past hour than Mr Jim Dollenger ever learned about cars in his life. Every automaker would kill to get Lutz on board. Yet, Jim slams him incessantly. Oh yeah..... Lutz criticised Jim's tactics too. That probally explains it.

5. Everyone who has more than 3 posts here is aware that it takes years to get a new car from idea to the showroom. 3-5 is the norm. Also affecting time is the money available to create these new cars. Why isn't Jim aware of that being in the car business all these years?

6. Finally, this is the guy who slammed the new Buick Enclave. He made the point in another thread on this site (do a search under his posts to see some of his posting jewels) that the Rendevous was a great ride and shouldn't be replaced, and if only GM followed his plan, they wouldn't need to create the Enclave. This was about the same time that story came out that had the Rendevous as having the worse depriciation of any "Truck" in America.

I never slam anyone, and i don't have a reputation as someone who flames others. Even when I debate, I try to keep things balenced and civil. However, I have never come across anyone who is just so destructive while saying he "wants only what's best for GM".

As long as it's $$$ for him, and he gets his revenge against the bully's who kicked sand in his face at the beach, then in his mind it's "Best for GM".

Unlike what he'll probally post, I'm not going to attempt to sell you my views, or resort to name calling if you disagree with me, or pretend I'm some savior of a plan or a thought.

And I'm not going to speak in cute metaphors an an attempt to impress you of the wisdom of what I say as a disquise to hide the fact that it's all just a con job to get you on my side. I can talk in regular straightforward language instead and get my point across easily.

All I'm gonna say is do a search on Buickman's posts, and make up your own mind.

Nuff said.

201920[/snapback]

Absolutely beautifully crafted post. I believe it was Spiro Agnew who had a great description for people like buickman..."Nattering nabobs of negativism". buickman's incessant vitreol does wear on me.

I think everyone who knows much at all about the auto industry (and who cares about GM's future) has a "plan to save GM". I have one of my own, which I would be willing to post on here AND truly accept criticism if I got a few people who were interested in hearing it. I don't even care about any kind of job or money that might go along with it, I just want GM to return to being the best car manufacturer in the world...specifically because I like GM's products, and would like to continue buying their cars until I'm too old and feeble to get behind the wheel any longer.

[Mr.Krinkle]

you somehow strike me as the type of salesperson who isnt concerned

with truth/truths.

its funny though how your defiant rebel attitude as you stuck it to the board during a shareholders meeting is only looked back upon by people as "that jackass who was carted off by security" hardly a heroic. more of an embarrassment. im almost embarrassed for you because you lack humility and shame, but that would probably mean i care too much, and lets be honest...i just dont have it in me to care that much.

There's little truth in the post to be concerned of. I'm not really interested in falsehoods

Buickman

201984[/snapback]

your a few acts short of sabotage before proving how bad off gm is.

the turnaround goes forward with you kicking and screaming like a spoiled brat and what do we do when children are throwing a fit? we stop paying attention.

Edited October 6, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[Guest buickman]

Suffice it to say, I was never evicted from any meeting. In fact I had to deal with a three hour long line of people interested in talking to and interviewing me after the affair in Delaware.

Further, I never "demanded" millions upfront. I only requested pay for performance until LaNeve told me I would have to resign as GM of a dealer. Only then did I ask for any form of set commitment and it was only for three months.

I certainly don't mind criticism but bold face lies are not something I care to reply to.

And if you don't think I understand the auto industry, check my record of accomplishment. I'll compare my achievements against anyone in retail.

Have some valid points, I'll gladly listen. Want to sling mud? Try and get someone else's goat, I'm not biting.

Buickman

THE VOICE....

Edited October 6, 2006 by buickman

[bowtie_dude]

Suffice it to say, I was never evicted from any meeting. In fact I had to deal with a three hour long line of people interested in talking to  and interviewing me after the affair in Delaware.

Further, I never "demanded" millions upfront. I only requested pay for performance until LaNeve told me I would have to resign as GM of a dealer. Only then did I ask for any form of set commitment and it was only for three months.

I certainly don't mind criticism but bold face lies are not something I care to reply to.

And if you don't think I understand the auto industry, check my record of accomplishment. I'll compare my achievements against anyone in retail.

Have some valid points, I'll gladly listen. Want to sling mud? Try and get someone else's goat, I'm not biting.

Buickman

THE IDIOT....

202012[/snapback]

Yeah, pretty much.

[Guest buickman]

Yeah, pretty much.

202020[/snapback]

Most Prophets aren't recognized until long afterward,

BM

[Satty]

Most prophets dont go around calling themselves prophets. They also prophesize about things that matter like war, hunger, famine, etc..

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Most of my posts are unintellegent, narcissistic drivel.

The Idiot

Edited for clarity.

Edited October 6, 2006 by YellowJacket894

[GEESIXER]

Ring... Hello... yes,... yes... oh okay, i will let him know, thanks. click

Hey Buickman! the village called. they want their idiot back!!!!!!

[Guest buickman]

Most prophets dont go around calling themselves prophets.  They also prophesize about things that matter like war, hunger, famine, etc..

202034[/snapback]

My mistake, make that PROFIT not prophet.

the voice...

[prinzSD]

Really...why must you troll this site? Your not a GM enthusiast, but yet you still come here spitting your drivel about how your always right and how Toyotas better than GM. Really it gets old. Grow up.

201591[/snapback]

It is to be expected froma guy is sign in name is Toyoguy and has a Lexus as his banner. Go back to your Toyota/Lexus forums. My wife drives a Lexus and we have A Corolla that was gieven to my son, but you do not see me trolling on Toyo/Lexus forums. I agree grow up! The T1000 thought not a Tundra was Toyota's attempt at a somewhat full size truck was at best a weal attempt and the execs should have been fored according to your philosphy.

[prinzSD]

id like to think the tide is turning.  i hear where you are coming from but things are gonna change.  either  someone else drops the ball and f's up or because the restructuring may evolve into something more meaningful.

an American revolution?  it could happen.

not only have vehicles improved,-- be it marginally on some or really obvious and welcome, even grandios on others --toyota is only a couple of major recalls or setbacks away from really having a resonant effect in the minds of shoppers.

these things add up.  theyll f8ck up just like everyone else.  either the same ways gm did--arguably happening or in some new and exciting ways...stay tuned

questions will become more pronounced and lets be real honest...its damn near impossible to keep up quality control at these levels.  just sheer math is gonna bite you on the ass.  ive been saying that forever, and many others probably too.

they can do it on their own but things are gonna shake up no matter what.

might even be something as stupid as hydrogen.    hey, thats what makes it interesting.

201917[/snapback]

I like to think so but everytime I pick up a Friday paper to read on Amtrak ther eis usually an article that says the domestics are hurting and if it is not in the auto section, it will be in the business section. I grow tired of these articles so Ido not read them all the time. The press can not or does not want to print an atricle that highlights progress for Detroit, I guess that would not sell papers.

[turbo200]

To offer another perspective on Buickman to complement Guion's great post......

Guion made an important point about sales tactics that I feel needs more emphasis/detail.

Buickman is a lifer. Started in the business probably around 25 years ago. When World War II ended and the economy started booming again, salesman couldn't find enough time to sell people cars. They began the idea of "qualifying" to determine who was going to buy today. In short, here began the sales trade of pressure and buy today, because there are too many consumers out there that are ready to buy for you to be wasting my time. If salesman are trained to do one thing well, it's to push people over the edge. The good salesman recognizes when a push is needed, and when not to push.

Buickman was in the business when Buick was selling close to a million cars yearly, or maybe more I'm not sure exactly on that point of history. In sales, when the salesman is not selling, it is always a reflection of him. He has to go back to the drawing board and try to remember the basics of the repetitive selling nature. If your point is not getting through, you must try again. Again and again. Did you make sure you got your point through, did you ask for the business, did you conquer this obstacle? Basic sales training.

Buickman is in a completely different market landscape today. Buick is not even a shadow of its former monstrous self. GM is much the same way. For this, we have years of incompetency and bad decision-making by managment. Titanic didn't sink two minutes after take-off. It took hours of bad decisions, and then when it was finally sinking, it took even more time to go fully down.

Unfortunately, the salesman has to keep going, typically unaware of what exact market changes are influencing his/her bad sales month/year.

I won't make any assumptions about Buickman's training. I will say he probably amassed a small fortune selling Buicks all these years, and that is how he was able to acquire stock in GM.

He is an oldtimer, just like the oldtimers who believed the Cavalier was okay with just another refresh. The oldtimers full of audacity and arrogance riding the waves so high, too high to see how thier pride would lead to thier downfall. They didn't want to listen to the 10 silly customers who were buying Civics, they underestimated how far and high Japanese companies could come by having a bullet proof work ethic and an incredible penchant for excellence. In short, they were too busy worrying about themselves to do any work.

I don't know how insightful this post is, I'll have to reread later and maybe add some more. just wanted to try and enlighten on Buickman's position.

He could also be royally pissed off about how much money he used to make, and how little he makes today. Regardless of his capabilities, the money is no where near what it used to be. And it used to be pretty great amounts.

[razoredge]

yea, the Buickman, "hero" and "profit" justs kills someones credibility, that will only learn someone disrespect, its not humble

I believe he does have a few points.

I believe they are sabatoging Buick by simply ignoring them. Maybe this Enclave proves otherwise but its another friggin Suv, so I have a hard time believeing it will have any effect on Buicks overall sales compared to 5 or 6 years ago when they still had models

I find it hard to believe in Wagoner, I still cant get over the huge bonus he got for..?.. 03 was it ? Hes made too many mistakes. I cant put him on the pedistal you guys do. He does deserve a bit of credit for his purchase of 1 million shares.....was it ? Still with the kind of money these types have, we could call that stupid money. Doesnt matter if it wins or looses, theres millions behind it. Better people have lost a larger percentage in the past 7 years.

I find it hard to believe in Lutz. The new "turn around" product is not that great. Many things have been let go. Other things are nitch. He's/they are focusing on saturin and thats not General Motors to me, thats not why Im here. Sure maybe you have some youngsters here that get all googoo gaga over this supposed "new" General Motors product. To me saturin means less than Toyota, I had one Toyota truck, well known to be one of the best trucks ever built. Toyotas are made here in the US, then what do I care about saturin ? Its made in the US and is responsible for so much misallocated funding to the divisions for which I am a General Motors owner and fan ? Ive also read way to many statements made by Lutz that seemed like maybe he didnt get a good enough nights sleep or is 20 years over due for retirement. You all, try to make him out like the modern day Harley Earl or Bill Mitchell, if so these are sad times indeed.

Heres a few "let goes" I can think of off the top of my head from MY experience, not some magazine article Im repeating like some robot

1. He let the console & cupholders & steering wheel go in the G6

2. The G6 has poorly laid out drivers, driving ergonomics, I aint talking about radio controls

3. The 3900 is laughable compared to the SC3800 and questionable against the NA3800

4. We have "fly by wire" throttle blade control which is a huge joke. Are you all into hesitation ? Dont believe me ? Go check it out !

5. We have some troublesome electronic steering, sorry I know little about it. GTP comes with NORMAL steering and I would have passed otherwise. I was not impressed with the GT I drove nor its 3500.

6. Malibu is a freekish looking thing

7. Aveo is a freekish looking thing

8. GTO was 7 year dated styling, when GM was already taking a bashing for dated unispireing styling

9. Rear panel on GP reskin was not worthy of the car......let go

10. Interior on GP was not worthy of the car......let go

11. Remove Bonneville & Sunfire leaving Pontiac hanging

12. Introduce Lucerne and aura........a new, yet old 01 Aurora

13. Reskin the Buick W body but leave the 12 year tired oval grill on it

14. Some of the boringest tailights for modern times on the Lucerne

15. Square cornered "somethings wrong" interiors in the Cadillacs

16. Leaves the cheezy little duck tail lip on the trunk of the G6 and put it on the GP in the first place

17. Cobalt doing well, but one generation behind in styling compared to Civic/Acura, Mazda

18. Remove LeSabre and Park Avenue and replace with one car

I had to start thinking so Ill stop there, I know theres more. Notice, I did not get into the softie plastics and pushrod engine/not enough tranny gears like everyone else does. I let that stuff go because I do believe that is frivolous compared to these styling and divisional management oversites and they are under Lutz in his supposed field of income and purpose.

NO IM not a Buickman FOLLOWER !

I am a independant thinker, even uninspired by the rest of you. These are the things I see. I spent an insane amount of time on GM parking lots this summer. So while you all disgust with Buickmans arrogance, I disgust with your beliefs that Lutz and Wagoner are "saviors" or "profits" or "heros". They better start paying attention and hunt down some design staff that truely have new leading edge, noncheezy ideas.........immeadiatly !

Dont give me the "stop gap" story either. Lacrosse was new sheet metal, GP was new sheet metal, G6 trunk was new sheet metal, Cobalt was new sheetmetal, Malibu was new sheetmetal, Lucerne was new sheetmetal, G6 console was new console, ect, ect, ect. The work was done brand new but things were let go or came out behind the times ! Who was paying attention ? Who got credit for exciting new product ?

Whats with the Potbelly Pig look of these new Blazer type things Im seeing ?

The jury is still behind closed doors and the clock is ticking, we are waiting watching and trying to be positive but then take a close look and say... What ?

Whos running this show ?

Then after/if they get this crap straightened out they have to deal with the American attitude and "global economy" I have already beat to death. "beat to death" I only wish !

[ToniCipriani]

Toyoguy, on the other hand, does none of the "biggest fan" part. His sole purpose here is to critique and spin.

201772[/snapback]

Replace critique with troll. Some of his statements at times are really stupid, just for the heck of tarnishing GM. And I mean what I say, and I'm dead serious.

Speaking of which, notice how the "death watch" count is up to like 94? I wonder which will outlive... the number system or their website?

[Guest buickman]

Gentlemen,

With all due respect, I know more about selling cars and how to improve GM than most anyone.

the voice...

Edited October 7, 2006 by buickman

[tama z71]

Gentlemen,

With all due respect, I know more about selling cars and how to improve GM than most anyone.

the voice...

202326[/snapback]

IF GENERAL MOTORS' MANAGEMENT COLLECTIVELY EQUALLED HALF THE ARROGANCE YOU POSSESS AND SO READILY DISPLAY, CHEVY WOULD STILL BE SELLING THE CITATION AND YOUR INCESSANT BULL$h! MIGHT ACTUALLY BE WARRANTED.

I dont give a damn about your track record and I dont give a damn about your plan. You CANNOT expect to come around here, drop a few words of masturbatory foreboding and expect folks to believe that you're not a JACKASS!!

[Satty]

True wisdom comes in knowing that you know nothing.

[Variance]

Gentlemen,

With all due respect, I know more about selling cars and how to improve GM than most anyone.

the voice...

202326[/snapback]

Well, haughtiness certainly isn't to get anyone on your side. "The voice..."? Do you realize just how pompous that sounds?

[Cory Wolfe]

Everyone who disagrees with you and or sees through your act is just a blind follower, yet you and your "Plan to save GM" is the only thing that "can" save GM.

Fortunately, it seems people here are begining to think for themselves and once again, you bring up that tired old "Blind Follower" flag.

Everyone and their brother inside GM, inside OEMs (Original Equiptment Manufacturers for those who don't know), and people outside of both who have above average math comprehension and a room tempreature IQ have all either attempted to explain things to you, or attempted to focus your efforts into a more constructive or helpful direction. In short, you've pretty much s*itted on them.

Recapping for those who haven't had the pleasure of knowing who Buickman is,

1. His name is Jim Dollenger. He's made a tidy living selling Buicks to GM employees and retirees up in Michigan.

2. He fancies himself an expert on how the car industry operates. As a salesman, he believes it's not the product that's important, it's the sales. In short, if it ain't selling, it's the way it's being sold, not that someone else has a better product, or the market is changing.

3. He created some multi point plan he's been hawking for longer than I can remember. He posted it a few times, and invited constructive criticism, then proceeded to either ignore, ridicule, or act condesending to everyone who took up his offer.

4. He attempted to sell this plan to GM for millions of dollars. GM offered him a corperate position to implement his "plan". He refused and demanded the money. GM understandably showed him the door.

5. He's been on this anti Rick Wagoner and GM board of directors rampage, and created his GM Deathwatch website as his own little self aggrandizing shrine to himself. Of course, every anti-GM person flocks to this place. It also has plenty of "testimonials" from so called believers in his "Plan to save GM".

6. This past year, he has advocated Delphi workers to go on strike, specifically so he could damage GM. He went in to GM's annual stockholders meeting and made a complete a** of himself by calling the CEO names, & insulting the board of directors and creating a disturbance... of course, earning an ejection from the gathering.

7. He used this little stint of his to say that he was tossed out because GM was trying to "silence him" because he had plans to "save" GM, and they didn't want to listen to him.

If there's anyone left on this website that might be tempted to actually believe him and his sincerity in saving GM, ask yourself:

1. Why do you only hear from him when he wants to slam GM?

2. Why can't he go more than a few posts without showing a disturbing and alarming hatred for Rick Wagoner in particular?

3. Where is he when there's good GM news to report, and why does he never give GM credit?

4. Bob Lutz is the most respected car executive in the business. He has worked at Ford, BMW, Mercedes, Ford Europe, essentially ran Chrysler, and has forgotten more about cars the past hour than Mr Jim Dollenger ever learned about cars in his life. Every automaker would kill to get Lutz on board. Yet, Jim slams him incessantly. Oh yeah..... Lutz criticised Jim's tactics too. That probally explains it.

5. Everyone who has more than 3 posts here is aware that it takes years to get a new car from idea to the showroom. 3-5 is the norm. Also affecting time is the money available to create these new cars. Why isn't Jim aware of that being in the car business all these years?

6. Finally, this is the guy who slammed the new Buick Enclave. He made the point in another thread on this site (do a search under his posts to see some of his posting jewels) that the Rendevous was a great ride and shouldn't be replaced, and if only GM followed his plan, they wouldn't need to create the Enclave. This was about the same time that story came out that had the Rendevous as having the worse depriciation of any "Truck" in America.

I never slam anyone, and i don't have a reputation as someone who flames others. Even when I debate, I try to keep things balenced and civil. However, I have never come across anyone who is just so destructive while saying he "wants only what's best for GM".

As long as it's $$$ for him, and he gets his revenge against the bully's who kicked sand in his face at the beach, then in his mind it's "Best for GM".

Unlike what he'll probally post, I'm not going to attempt to sell you my views, or resort to name calling if you disagree with me, or pretend I'm some savior of a plan or a thought.

And I'm not going to speak in cute metaphors an an attempt to impress you of the wisdom of what I say as a disquise to hide the fact that it's all just a con job to get you on my side. I can talk in regular straightforward language instead and get my point across easily.

All I'm gonna say is do a search on Buickman's posts, and make up your own mind.

Nuff said.

201920[/snapback]

Buickman is just some fool compensating for what he lacks.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Gentlemen,

With all due respect, I know more about selling cars and how to improve GM than most anyone.

the voice...

Oh, weeping Jesus on the cross.

[Drew Dowdell]

Gentlemen,

With all due respect, I know more about selling cars and how to improve GM than most anyone.

the voice...

202326[/snapback]

You have as much insight into improving General Motors as the #1 Grand Marquies salesman in Florida has into improving Ford.

[Petra]

I see BM is still on his little power trip to pin everything wrong with GM on Rick Wagoner. What BM doesn't realize (and most rational people here do) is that GM was sick long before Wagoner was in any position of power. The sorry state that GM is in today has more to do with mistakes made in the 1970's and 1980's than mistakes made recently. Not that there hasn't been any... Enculturating buyers to depend upon "the deal" rather than the product through the use of incentives has proved to be a disaster in the long-term. But that pales in comparison to the utter arrogance and senseless decisions that were made decades ago.

I'm not saying that Wagoner is going to be the man who saves GM. Like I said before, he's made his share of blunders. However, I would say that the progress he has made so far is outstanding, given the circumstances. Imagine GM as a runner. Its competitors are fast, strong, have great endurance, have been training for years, and are more photogenic. And then up walks the defending champion: GM. An athelete's body is in there somewhere... underneath a layer of blubber. The clothes that once fit so well are now dangerously tight. GM didn't bother to train until the last second, thinking that its competitors were nothing to be afraid of. And GM is ugly and old-looking, and it doesn't photograph well. If you were given the task of trying to make GM competitive, to say nothing of making it win the race, what would you do? What could you do? That is the challenge facing the people who run GM (the real GM) today. To say it is an unenviable task is to spit in the face of the phrase "unenviable task". Yet, Wagoner, Lutz and the rest have taken it on. And they are making progress. Slow progress, but progress all the same. And I don't see anybody else out there who could do any better. If you see anybody more fit to lead, then let me know.

I sure don't see a leader in BM... Just a crybaby who never got his way. Same goes for Kirk Kerkorian. I have never understood this penny-pinching attitude that some old people seem to have (except in the case when they are genuinely materially poor, but that is obviously not the case with Kirkorian). What better time to spend a little of your hard-earned dough, love your life a little before you lose it? Kirk Kerkorian will die a fabulously wealthy man someday soon. But I doubt he will die a happy man.

Edited October 8, 2006 by Petra

[capriceman]

There is a reson i no longer go to this section becasue its constant bickering.

And just because you can sell a car doesnt mean you can save the company that makes the car.

And Open up a history book once in a while.

Also if you dont like the american ways go move to Japan were you be another suicide statistic.

[toyoguy]

weekend edition of WSJ writes the Tahoe is now at a 125day supply and production will be cut 2%.

Fargo hasn't said anything unjustified,

and this thread isn't about whether or not Buickman is an idiot, it's about Fargo's article.

[GEESIXER]

First of all razor, it is spelled SATURN!!!! not saturin.

Second, it is spelled PROPHET!!!!! not profit.

[ToniCipriani]

1. He let the console & cupholders & steering wheel go in the G6

2. The G6 has poorly laid out drivers, driving ergonomics, I aint talking about radio controls

3. The 3900 is laughable compared to the SC3800 and questionable against the NA3800

4. We have "fly by wire" throttle blade control which is a huge joke. Are you all into hesitation ? Dont believe me ? Go check it out !

5. We have some troublesome electronic steering, sorry I know little about it. GTP comes with NORMAL steering and I would have passed otherwise. I was not impressed with the GT I drove nor its 3500.

6. Malibu is a freekish looking thing

7. Aveo is a freekish looking thing

8. GTO was 7 year dated styling, when GM was already taking a bashing for dated unispireing styling

9. Rear panel on GP reskin was not worthy of the car......let go

10. Interior on GP was not worthy of the car......let go

11. Remove Bonneville & Sunfire leaving Pontiac hanging

12. Introduce Lucerne and aura........a new, yet old 01 Aurora

13. Reskin the Buick W body but leave the 12 year tired oval grill on it

14. Some of the boringest tailights for modern times on the Lucerne

15. Square cornered "somethings wrong" interiors in the Cadillacs

16. Leaves the cheezy little duck tail lip on the trunk of the G6 and put it on the GP in the first place

17. Cobalt doing well, but one generation behind in styling compared to Civic/Acura, Mazda

18. Remove LeSabre and Park Avenue and replace with one car

202227[/snapback]

Some of them I agree here, some don't.

1. Yes, this one I mentioned it in my review as well. The cupholders are in an awkward position.

2. I don't find any problems with this one. I've been literally driving my cars for hours and it's not hurting my back or anything.

3. In case you haven't noticed, the 3900 isn't really a successor to the 3800 series. Cars that got the 3900 were positioned as if they were to get the old 3400 from the Grand Am. Have you seen a Buick car with a 3900, minus the Terraza?

4. I have drive by wire on my car, again I don't have any problems with it. Newer technologies take a bit time to adapt to it, just like when ABS first came out. Even when Mercedes demonstrated their new brake system the test driver crashed the car.

5. This was corrected in 2007. The only model to get the electric steering is the 4-cylinder.

6. & 7. This is personal opinion. I'm pretty sure a lot of people think differently. As well, Lutz didn't do the Malibu.

8. The idea of the GTO coming here was more of a toy idea than an actual replacement. That's why it only came here for a short period of time. The real one comes in 2008 or 9.

9. & 10. Can you elaborate on "let go"? I'm pretty sure it's not just Lutz who approves just everything. Yes, he has the power to, but GM's not a one man company.

11. The Sunfire was dated. Especially with the Cobalt around, it is just worthless to have it hanging around. The original idea was to not rebadge the Cobalt as a Pontiac, but they had to do it anyways because the dealers were complaining. Don't forget the Torana is pretty much confirmed now for Pontiac. As for the Bonneville, don't forget: it's P-B-G now. Pontiac is NOT a full lineup.

12. What's wrong with the Aura and the Lucerne? They're selling and gaining friction. Yes, from certain angles the Aura looks like a refreshed Sebring, but who cares? It's a good car and styling, as I was saying, is personal opinion.

13. Not sure about this one, but the LaCrosse/Allure wasn't Lutz's as well, IIRC. The LaCrosse is getting refreshed soon, so it doesn't matter.

14. What the hell is "boringest"? Is it even a word? Again, the taillamps on the Lucerne is a styling issue. Personal opinion.

15. Look at the SRX, and upcoming CTS spyshots.

16. Styling opinion, I don't really like the spoiler on my car either. But not because it's ugly, I just think the G6 doesn't really need one. If you hate it you can always go with an aftermarket one. It's choice.

17. Again, styling is personal. The Corolla looks even more like an appliance, and yet it sells. GM is an automobile manufacture, not an interior design firm. Yes, they need to make it attractive, but a solid car is more important. And the Cobalt is one.

18. Again: P-B-G.

Yes, some are my personal opinions, but yours were as well. Alot of your focus was on what was happened already, but nothing much on what is going to happen. There's no use crying over spilt milk, and the future is what's more important. We can only learn lessons from them, and I'm pretty sure GM has already.

Give Lutz and company some space and time to work with. A car from concept to actual product takes time.

[Chicagoland]

Buick used to seel well as re-badges of Chevys, when most of the WW2 generation was still able to drive or alive. They bouight them since ofr $50 more they were getting what they thought was a 'better car than a Chevy". all they really got was badges and more chrome.

B man wants and expects these 'good od days' to come back.

Just put a Buick badge on all of GM's main car/truck lines and supposedly watch buyers line up.

But the "Buick loyalists" are in nursing homes or passed on. Can't just rely on the old "I work for GM and my family has driven them forever.." buyers.

"I know more about selling cars" should travel outside of Flint MI and see that 90% of the US car buiyers do not care about the old GM divisional trim/styling/image differences and 'good old days'.

[Chicagoland]

"Introduce Lucerne and aura........a new, yet old 01 Aurora"

And one more thing, the Aura is not "an 01 Aurora" reskinned. It is not the G body at all, its the Epsilon, which is far from 'dated'.

[Drew Dowdell]

"Introduce Lucerne and aura........a new, yet old 01 Aurora"

And one more thing, the Aura is not "an 01 Aurora" reskinned. It is not the G body at all, its the Epsilon, which is far from 'dated'.

203006[/snapback]

Sadly, the 01 Aurora has a nicer interior

[razoredge]

First of all razor,  it is spelled SATURN!!!!  not saturin.

Second, it is spelled PROPHET!!!!!  not profit.

202923[/snapback]

Oh looky, yet another spelling fetish...............

[razoredge]

Buick used to seel well as re-badges of Chevys, when most of the WW2 generation was still able to drive or alive. They bouight them since ofr $50 more they were getting what they thought was a 'better car than a Chevy". all they really got was badges and more chrome.

202990[/snapback]

Oh........really ? Hey everybody, read this and pass it around, it must be true.....

[razoredge]

"Introduce Lucerne and aura........a new, yet old 01 Aurora"

And one more thing, the Aura is not "an 01 Aurora" reskinned. It is not the G body at all, its the Epsilon, which is far from 'dated'.

203006[/snapback]

I can tell, this stuff is going right over your head. I just cant put the time into explaining how the aura is today, the same exact thing the G2 Aurora was to Oldsmobile...only 6 years later.

I also cant explain why G is by far superior to Epilson. So if reality means newer is better... than Epilson must be dated and G body brand spankin new. But that had absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about.

[razoredge]

Some of them I agree here, some don't.

............

Give Lutz and company some space and time to work with. A car from concept to actual product takes time.

202942[/snapback]

Thanks for the responce and time put into it. My point was these were all mistakes made under Lutz supervision. If he did not have enough time to supervise this handful of projects in the 4 years they took to get here and make sure they were right.......hes far from the answer to GM's design problems.

3900 is the new OHV V6 hope for GM and it is the OHV engine that replaced the 3800 regardless of what models it is put in. The 38 stayed around so long because they simply could never come up with anything better......this 3900 was supposed to be it.

go out and crack the throttle in your car and listen to the engine pick up one second later. My point was not that there is a serious problem with it, its the fact that they spent all this time and money on such an unnecessary item when so many more important things needed to be done.

I was not refering to Sunfire...the car, or Bonneville... the car or LeSabre/PA... the car. I was talking about the condition these decisions and type of handling of the divisions left Buick and Pontiac in for sales. Dont throw the "its now Buick Pontiac GMC" in my face. That seems to matter little when they start adding up the total annual sales and market share, then all of a sudden its "Buick didnt sell enough cars" It also does little for the dealers that lost these demographs from their sales potential.

Lutz did over see all the cars I mentioned. We waited an extra 2 years for the new Regal -"Lacrosse" because Lutz sent them back to the drawing board, and he approved the Lacrosse

Face it hes is not an Earl or Mitchell and people need to start seeing him as just another exec collecting a fat check that is over due for retirement.

I like the word "boringest"......if you cant figure it out because it aint in the dictionary..."what the hell" is the matter with you... .... Seriously look at the rear of the many cars the Lucerne could compete against, they are far more detailed or carry more character, it was a short fall and I will point to Lutz and say "where were you ?" "playing golf" "or making another one of your foolish interviews" I could find dozens of higher stated Buick tailights over a multitude of decades, including recent ones.

Finally you said this

" There's no use crying over spilt milk, and the future is what's more important."

Well we've all heard that our entire lives. My point was these are the people that were incharge and these are the mistakes and oversites they made. Only a few of them actually, just the little items on models here and there i could think of off the top of my head. I cant give them superhero status like everyone else here seems to.

[turbo200]

I find it hard to believe in Lutz. The new "turn around" product is not that great. Many things have been let go. Other things are nitch. He's/they are focusing on saturin and thats not General Motors to me, thats not why Im here. Sure maybe you have some youngsters here that get all googoo gaga over this supposed "new" General Motors product. To me saturin means less than Toyota, I had one Toyota truck, well known to be one of the best trucks ever built. Toyotas are made here in the US, then what do I care about saturin ? Its made in the US and is responsible for so much misallocated funding to the divisions for which I am a General Motors owner and fan ? Ive also read way to many statements made by Lutz that seemed like maybe he didnt get a good enough nights sleep or is 20 years over due for retirement. You all, try to make him out like the modern day Harley Earl or Bill Mitchell, if so these are sad times indeed.

Heres a few "let goes" I can think of off the top of my head from MY experience, not some magazine article Im repeating like some robot

1. He let the console & cupholders & steering wheel go in the G6

2. The G6 has poorly laid out drivers, driving ergonomics, I aint talking about radio controls

3. The 3900 is laughable compared to the SC3800 and questionable against the NA3800

4. We have "fly by wire" throttle blade control which is a huge joke. Are you all into hesitation ? Dont believe me ? Go check it out !

5. We have some troublesome electronic steering, sorry I know little about it. GTP comes with NORMAL steering and I would have passed otherwise. I was not impressed with the GT I drove nor its 3500.

6. Malibu is a freekish looking thing

7. Aveo is a freekish looking thing

8. GTO was 7 year dated styling, when GM was already taking a bashing for dated unispireing styling

9. Rear panel on GP reskin was not worthy of the car......let go

10. Interior on GP was not worthy of the car......let go

11. Remove Bonneville & Sunfire leaving Pontiac hanging

12. Introduce Lucerne and aura........a new, yet old 01 Aurora

13. Reskin the Buick W body but leave the 12 year tired oval grill on it

14. Some of the boringest tailights for modern times on the Lucerne

15. Square cornered "somethings wrong" interiors in the Cadillacs

16. Leaves the cheezy little duck tail lip on the trunk of the G6 and put it on the GP in the first place

17. Cobalt doing well, but one generation behind in styling compared to Civic/Acura, Mazda

18. Remove LeSabre and Park Avenue and replace with one car

I had to start thinking so Ill stop there, I know theres more. Notice, I did not get into the softie plastics and pushrod engine/not enough tranny gears like everyone else does. I let that stuff go because I do believe that is frivolous compared to these styling and divisional management oversites and they are under Lutz in his supposed field of income and purpose.

NO IM not a Buickman FOLLOWER !

I am a independant thinker, even uninspired by the rest of you. These are the things I see. I spent an insane amount of time on GM parking lots this summer. So while you all disgust with Buickmans arrogance, I disgust with your beliefs that Lutz and Wagoner are "saviors" or "profits" or "heros". They better start paying attention and hunt down some design staff that truely have new leading edge, noncheezy ideas.........immeadiatly !

Dont give me the "stop gap" story either. Lacrosse was new sheet metal, GP was new sheet metal, G6 trunk was new sheet metal, Cobalt was new sheetmetal, Malibu was new sheetmetal, Lucerne was new sheetmetal, G6 console was new console, ect, ect, ect. The work was done brand new but things were let go or came out behind the times ! Who was paying attention ? Who got credit for exciting new product ?

Whats with the Potbelly Pig look of these new Blazer type things Im seeing ?

The jury is still behind closed doors and the clock is ticking, we are waiting watching and trying to be positive but then take a close look and say... What ?

Whos running this show ?

Then after/if they get this crap straightened out they have to deal with the American attitude and "global economy" I have already beat to death. "beat to death" I only wish !

202227[/snapback]

I see good old razor is at it again. I was going to let this one go, but you've continued posting and spreading your fallacies so I had to respond.

The Enclave is sabotagging Buick like the CTS sabotagged Cadillac. Sabotagging would be what Saturn had done to them for years prior to this year. Buick has gotten new product in the last few years, the Lucerne and Lacrosse and the Enclave is one of the best designed product GM will have released since the original CTS.

Of your list above, it is hard to disagree with anything there, EXCEPT that 90% of it has nothing to do with Bob Lutz.

Both Lutz and Wagoner have gotten their fair bit of criticism from us; everytime someone puts down a product here that has come out recently, it is tied directly to them.

However, you do not understand the fine points of running an automotive company, that works years ahead in development. Right now, the design for the next Corvette is being researched, even though the current one is only two years old. The next GM 1000 pickups and SUVs are reaching crucial development stages, 2009 Impala and Camaros are being finalized.

It takes a lot of time for results to happen especially with a company as large and bureaucratic as GM.

As much as we have been taught that there is no such thing as underestimating GM, we will have to wait and see if the next round of product can prove to be some revolutionary product.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I can tell, this stuff is going right over your head. I just can't put the time into explaining how the Aura is today, the same exact thing the G2 Aurora was to Oldsmobile...only 6 years later.

Actually, a comparison of a first-generation Aurora to the Aura would be more appropriate. Both cars represented a renaissance and a turnaround for both divisions.

However, both cars are vastly different. The Aurora was a full-size, personal sedan. The Aura is a mid-sized, mainstream sedan.

I also cant explain why G is by far superior to Epsilon. So if reality means newer is better... than Epsilon must be dated and G body brand spankin new. But that had absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Razor, man, you're not making sense here. Epsilon is the new platform that debuted with the Saab 9-3 and Opel Vectra. The G-Body is a platform that's only in use with the Lucerne and DTS now and is due to be replaced with Zeta.

[razoredge]

I see good old razor is at it again.

I never stopped 

spreading your fallacies so I had to respond.

No fallacies, none at all,

The Enclave is sabotagging Buick like the CTS sabotagged Cadillac.

Where did I say Enclave was sabotagging anything ? 

Sabotagging would be what Saturn had done

yes, I believe that must be one of my "fallacies' ?

Buick has gotten new product in the last few years, the Lucerne and Lacrosse

So now, today, you are willing to say these two cars are "new" product ? OK

the Enclave is one of the best designed product

We know nothing about this vehicle or its success at this time. It looks nice for a Suv, but Im not into Suv's. Somewhere hear I stated that Enclave proved some investment but it was another Suv at a time when Suvs may not be a bright move

GM will have released since the original CTS.

So tell me again, was the CTS really that great ? Or just a step forward. Was it met with much more than luke warm responce ?

Of your list above, it is hard to disagree with anything there,

then why did you say " spreading your fallacies" ? 

EXCEPT that 90% of it has nothing to do with Bob Lutz.

Say what ? Lutz was super over all that, that was his job, where was he ?

However, you do not understand the fine points of running an automotive company, that works years ahead in development. Right now, the design for the next Corvette is being researched, even though the current one is only two years old. The next GM 1000 pickups and SUVs are reaching crucial development stages, 2009 Impala and Camaros are being finalized.

It takes a lot of time for results to happen especially with a company as large and bureaucratic as GM.

Are you serious in thinking that you told me something here that I do not know ? Geeze !

As much as we have been taught that there is no such thing as underestimating GM, we will have to wait and see if the next round of product can prove to be some revolutionary product.

If Lutz's majic wand overlooks the second round as it did the first.........well.......somewhere back a ways I believe I said, I doubted any amount of miracles will change the American view of new car purchase. I believe the trend to worship Asian vehicles will continue to compound, no matter what. I just would like to see less talk and more walk from the highly acclaimed wand wavers.

Heres

#19 Trunk ? Kappa ? Irrelevent ? Not Lutz either ?

#20 so hows that STS doing...........anyhow ? big cash returns ?

203131[/snapback]

Thanks for the responce, seriously ! My sarcasm is because Im pretty pissed off at so much misdirected energy, funding and then followed by reports of Lutz/Wagner heroism.

[razoredge]

Razor, man, you're not making sense here. Epsilon is the new platform that debuted with the Saab 9-3 and Opel Vectra. The G-Body is a platform that's only in use with the Lucerne and DTS now and is due to be replaced with Zeta.

203132[/snapback]

G2 Aurora -

1. available with what at that time was GM latest advanced 3.5 DOHC V6 for an affordable price

2. argueably better looking, if not its according to opinion. It is at least obvious the similiarities in styling, and the fact that they both were/are mid lux "sports sedan American style".........same damn car as far as Im concerned

except for the fact that Epilson cant possibly compare to G body, so that explains why its a bit cheaper ? Or is it really, once its decked out in trim suitable for 3.5 Aurora comparision ?

I know my platforms, Im not talking on the surface here, Im talking about what the purpose these vehicles were to do then and what they are to do today is the same damn thing only 6 years latter, same FWD layout, 3.5ish DOHC engine, 4 door sedan, luxury, styling.

I just hate them, loathing, wanna choke all involved, plug pullin SOB's gonna try it again but the players changed so its all alright now, look at all we did for you, watch us go ...............

I was here for Buick and Oldsmobile, now Im here for Buick and will fight for Pontiac but they arent really my style. Tic toc tic toc, not much left. I saw an Acura comming in the rearview mirror last week that drew my eye, then it passed me.......yea...........tic toc tic toc.......

[Guest buickman]

For fifteen years it's the same old thing "Wait until the new models hit". We're down over 2 more points of market share this year, same cycle of promises, no results, more promises, lowered expectations, and more promises.

Buickman

the voice...

[turbo200]

For fifteen years it's the same old thing "Wait until the new models hit". We're down over 2 more points of market share this year, same cycle of promises, no results, more promises, lowered expectations, and more promises.

Buickman

the voice...

203314[/snapback]

you are no voice if you think this is a prophecy. we have been saying this same mantra for years at this website. they have limited time to try and save some market share and fix some image. In Los Angeles, the cars are completely irrelevant. Only Cadillac makes a difference car-wise in LA......that is very bad and sad and shows how extreme the perception of GMs cars are in the market.

THE ISSUE is Wagoner and Lutz are not to blame for where they've gotten to. You've been told a million times the real product is coming, so it's pretty useless at this point. I think the operators of this website should seriously evaluate your contribution at this point. You are repetitive and detract from conversations.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

G2 Aurora -

1. available with what at that time was GM latest advanced 3.5 DOHC V6 for an affordable price

2. argueably better looking, if not its according to opinion. It is at least obvious the similiarities in styling, and the fact that they both were/are mid lux "sports sedan American style".........same damn car as far as Im concerned

except for the fact that Epilson cant possibly compare to G body, so that explains why its a bit cheaper ? Or is it really, once its decked out in trim suitable for 3.5 Aurora comparision ?

You know, it maybe better to compare the Aura to the Intrigue. The Intrigue got the 3.5 liter "Shortstar" V6 engine before the Aurora did -- and the Aurora didn't get it until it's second generation. Also, the Intrigue was a mid-sized mainstream sedan meant to take on the Camry and Accord, just like the Aura is now. And the W-Body platform was the successor to the Epsilion platform . . . well one of them anyway.

I know my platforms, I'm not talking on the surface here, Im talking about what the purpose these vehicles were to do then and what they are to do today is the same damn thing only 6 years latter, same FWD layout, 3.5ish DOHC engine, 4 door sedan, luxury, styling.

See above.

For fifteen years it's the same old thing "Wait until the new models hit". We're down over 2 more points of market share this year, same cycle of promises, no results, more promises, lowered expectations, and more promises.

Buickman

The Rainbow of Michigan...

"It's the same old story, same old song and dance . . ."

Give it a rest, Dollinger.

I think the operators of this website should seriously evaluate your contribution at this point. You are repetitive and detract from conversations.

Quoted for emphasis. Quoted for truth.

Edited October 10, 2006 by YellowJacket894

[razoredge]

No, not really, everyone heatedly involved in any of the discussions here could have the same thing said of them, myself included. I wont pick others apart because that is what you guys do to Buickman or even myself when you need someone to beat up on. Theres alot of posters here with a multitude of posts that have never really said anything.

So lets grow up and quit calling for reviews of other posters when our own closets (moderators included) are full of errors, excessive whining, name calling, quote adjustments........(something actually illegal in the real world), ect. ect. ect.

Yes we would be on the second generation Intrigue, now...........actually Alero Alpha........G6 coupe is closest to being what Alpha was intended. Spilt milk, yea, but it laid, went rancid and now its hard to get rid of the stench. How do you spell stench ? Give me an s, give me an a, give me a t,..........ah never mind I dont want to be whinny and brought up for review.

Lets face it Wagner/Lutz and crew have overlooked or let go way to much. I can survive not having a 6 sp yet, or enough DOHC engines, or enough RWD's, or all new platforms. We all know all that will take X years to complete. Im looking at all the little stuff wrong with what has been put to market and am simply saying. Im tired of hearing that these guys are "the plan" and that Lutz is the "Product Guru". I can see his crews work, their good, but its so easy to find the errors and say "where were you on that day?" "why did you spend money and time on that, when we needed this ? "

[frogger]

I just want them to figure out how to put some design into the center stack/consoles of their moderately priced cars other than rental car chic (sky being the exception). At that point I'll be confident of them surviving and keeping a mid-twenties percentage of market share.

[GEESIXER]

I know one thing, I wont be happy until they design the interior of a car to give me road head while I drive long distances!!!!!!!!

no, but seriously folks. it may just be me but what is the big deal about the G6 center console area, i have a G6 and i love everything about it!!!!

can someone exlpain to me without using an opinion what it is?

[Mr.Krinkle]

five pages later and 90+ replies i guess this is why they write a GM deathwatch.

[razoredge]

G6 console

1. Is a very very cheap piece of plastic that does not match the rest of the interior pieces. Its like something you would buy at Walmart for $18 to put your coffee cups in and a few CD's...........that kind of quality

2. Meets the bottom of "center stack" with a kindergarden level of design talent.........its just plain cheezy

3. extends all the way forward to firewall, cramping the foot area by the gas pedal. I just stepped out and measured, there is 1" between the side of the pedal and the console On my LSS there is nothing but the carpet laid over the exhaust tunnel and its 3" from the pedal and then, only at the bottom of pedal. Above that - nothing but air.

A quick feel behind the floppy plastic of the G6 indicated that we have electrical gadgetry hiddin behind there, so you know what ? Thats a big slam for ol' Lutz Putz. The engineers, designers and their "guru" have placed utility location above and beyond driver comfort. Think of it as the power company coming through and changing the pole line, placing the pole in the center of your driveway entrance and saying.......too bad for you.....

4. Shifter is fine, located where it should be......amazingly...it must be the engineers/designers felt the reference for proper placement in the book was good enough for this one and didnt need improvising or rewriting.

5. HOWEVER ! With hand on shifter you have 2" of "arm rest" under the tippy tip of your elbow.

6. WHY ? "Oh looky, where shall we put the cup HOLES? "..." Oh I know, we'll make a short arm rest and stick the cup HOLES where the front of the armrest/compartment would normally be "

7. Why cup HOLES ? Because that is what they are, they are not cupholders, they are holes in the "console" Brilliant, absolute bafflin' brilliance !

8. Lets further examing the cup HOLES... Where do we set the morning coffee cup ? Lets see, in front of the arm rest and behind the shifter... so that would be.. like ?.. inbetween the area designated for location of the shifting arm? "Well screw the arm, the arm is not part of our design concerns, we do not sell our cars with shifting arms, the arm is supplied by the driver, not our problem " My wife just told me, due to the fact that her coffee cup is exact height as arm rest she rests her elbow....................IN THE COFFEE CUP ! So I suppose now I am supposed to see that these guys are in fact "brilliant". Who would have thought that a properly placed cup HOLE, with driver supplied "proper size" travel mug could suffice for the armrest, thereby excluding the manufacturer the expence of a few extra bits of plastic....................

My 1988 Dodge Dakota had a cup HOLDER that pulled out of the dash and carried drinks, easily within reach, out of the way of everything, including radio, and stowed away invisibly when not needed. I see my buddies 535 BMW has two even slicker designed swing out of the dash HOLDERS..........wonder if GM and its staff of gurus could have come up with a compromise between a 88 DAKOTA and an 06 Beemer ?

9. Oh-kay...lets move away from the "HOLES" The padding on the arm rests, including the door is pathaticly low budget. Ya know, I could care less about a bit of flop down under the dash, "hard materials" on top of the dash or anywhere else...but where I place my elbows or arms....is it too much to expect some padding ? I mean we had padding in the 80's...70's....60's...50's....long before we had any form of plastic on dashes.....we still had padded soft arm rests...imagine

This topic is not about the G6, so I wont go on into all the other driver ergonomic screw ups, when I get to pictures, I plan on doing an extensive piece in the articals section, with photos to back my points up.

This is however a topic that struck on the subject of "what are these guys doing ?" So I figure it was OK to take it at least this far.

The G6 GTP coupe is a car that I had been waiting for and calling for. Along with many others. A high performance modern tec V6 engine, standard shift in a V6 FWD (in this case the much anticipated 6 sp), 2 dr, very sporty body, fastback. Everything we cried about when Grand Prix lost the coupe and never had a standard tranny, everything we cried about when the LeSabre 2 dr was dropped for '92. Now, here it is and I purchased it, only later to find all these design screw ups. I took a 5 mile test drive, with my mind on far to many things to realize that I would never get comfortable due to the layout of the seating/steering/pedal layout. Somehow I have a feeling the "gurus" did the same 5 mile drive with much on their minds. However, that is their job, it should not have slipped by, that is why they make the big bucks. They put packaging ahead of driver comfort and function...so apparently not only are they not Earls or Mitchells...they feel they can throw out all knowledge learned over the years. Knowledge in fact concentrated on in the 50's & 60's by these and other great design artists as to how to properly locate driver controls around the seating compartment for optium comfort.

[GEESIXER]

oh.. kay,

i may have struck a nerve. in responce about the cup "holes" as you call them, they 2003 VW golf GTI has cup holders cleverly hidden in the dash directly above the radio. so when you do need to use the holders, you ahvd better set the station ahead of time because between steering and shifting you wont have that damn third hand to actually change the station. plus in the event of any sort of pot hole, if yo spill the damn thing it has nowhere to go but onto the radio.

But i digress, my only point to this tangent was that even the "holyer than thou" engineers in germany have brain farts every now and then.

and in the event your responce is the fact that it is a sports car and therfore not designed for holding drinks, think for a second and maybe GM was thinking the same thing(Is it really that big of a deal) its abviously not to me.

But i do thank you for taking the time to try explaining why it is so bad.

[razoredge]

But i do thank you for taking the time to try explaining why it is so bad.

203867[/snapback]

whats the problem ? you cant strike a nerve, I paid $26000 for what struck the nerve. I didnt try to explain anything, I did explain. It is bad, its a six speed that needs constant shifting, then there are all the other issues. What are you on ? your first car ? There is no excuse for these oversites or more likely they just blew them off like you seem to want to. Thats kindergarten engineering inside that car, not a speck of brilliance involved. This is one of the few "new" GM platforms and its loaded with flaws. This is the platform thats supposed to replace W. It could be thought of as a replacement for the old E body as well. They were upscale..... but agile sporty little cars like the G6 is supposed to be. Theres two old GM platforms that are far superior in internal comfort. This Epilson is supposed to be the new competitor for the small Honda/Toyota/Nissian/Mazda/Mitzubichi..........yet its obvious someone was snoozin' on the job. Not being cheap, not being crafty, just plain not paying attention.

I denied it when some magazine said, and I qoute "better go back to the drawing board", "wrestled it around the track". Well let me tell you I feel like an ass, a $26,000 ass, because they could not have been more correct, more accurate. There is something wrong with the cockpit in Epilson.

[Bizz]

Ok, let's break down what's wrong with this article:

Yes, but GM actually sold more retail units this September. I'd say that's what matters.

I'd rather see GM at 22-24% share with about 80% retail units than 30% share but the same number of retail units. Adding fleet sales only hurts resale for us, GM's customers.

Again, it's all about retail sales, and GM has been improving in this area.

Actually, Tahoe, Yukon, Yukon XL, Suburban, and Avalanche sales were all up in September, and I think it's fair to say that the only reason last year's numbers were higher is because of the Employee pricing. On, top of that, the Tahoe is only down 3k units vs. last year. Oh, and on top of that, the Escalade is actually up vs. last year, even with Employee pricing. And, last  I checked, the segment was down by a large margin this year. I don't know the exact figures, but I'm guessing the segment as a whole is down more % points than GM is, so that means GM would have increased market share, meaning that they are taking back some of the market, granted, not by storm.

Oh, and let's not forget to mention, once again, that the T900s are doing this at MUCH higher transaction prices, which means GM is making TONS of money on them.

This may be the biggest line of BS so far. Umm, hello, GM sells close to 1 million pickups per year, and is currently on pace to sell about 4.2 million vehicles this year. If 1/4 of GM's vehicles are highly profitable (and this doesn't include the T900 SUVs, either), then I think that would keep GM at profitable levels.

Oh, and let's not forget the new products coming. How many of them are lackluster?

So they had a good month... how about mentioning that the Sequoia is down 25.7% for the year (looks like the Tahoe is doing much better, no?), Highlander is down 10.3%, Land Cruiser is down 34.1%, 4Runner is up 3.8%, and the RAV4 is the only one that has any real gain, at 104%.

I could give some nice figures for some GM SUVs to make them look brighter than they really are, too:

Avalance up 44.5% for the month, and the GMT900s are doing bad?

H3 up 21.5% for the month, and 120.8% for the year.

Torrent up 127.1% for the month.

I just love how TTAC thinks it can get away with BS like this. The T900s are doing bad, and the only Toyota SUV that is doing better than average for the year is the RAV4.

I think I already demostrated that anything about the T900s being failures is made up BS.

Wow, nice journalism.

Personal opinion with nothing to back it up. And, who says the "gotta-have" vehicles aren't coming? I'd say the Lambdas look damn impressive, the Malibu is supposed to be a knockout, and I'd say the Camaro is as close to "gotta-have" as you can get.

TTAC is a joke, which I guess is why Buickman takes them to be the Automotive Bible.

201338[/snapback]

there should be a law. automotive analcysts should be required to pass basic competency and IQ tests. proctologists for the latter, i guess.