'08 CTS - What about under the hood?

[bcs296]

I've heard the rumors of a 280-300hp V6, but is it just speculation? Being "good enough" is typical GM thought and I'm fearing that they are going to seriously drop the ball and stick with the same 255hp engine they have now. A ~300hp V6 would greatly step on the [underperforming] 4.6l Northstar's toes with just 320hp. I suppose this just emphasizes the need for the Northstar to be revamped.

They didn't feel it was necessary to upgrade the GMT900's small block/4speed combo which is the same crime.

Edited July 25, 2006 by bcs296

[91z4me]

The VE cars are getting a 267 hp version of the 3.6 and there has been confirmed talk of a DI version of the same 3.6. Logic tells us that Caddy gets new tech first and with the CTS doing so well now and getting a new more dramatic interior and exterior next year I would be shocked if the CTS didn't get the new DI 3.6 as a midlevel engine with 3.6 non DI as the base. I think we will see the 2.8 go away for the US. Also remember the new CTS will be wider and therefore heavier.

[VenSeattle]

A ~300hp V6 would greatly step on the [underperforming] 4.6l Northstar's toes with just 320hp. I suppose this just emphasizes the need for the Northstar to be revamped.

171121[/snapback]

I'm constantly baffled by comments like this... The Northstar is not "underperforming". Direct competitors to the Northstar V8:

BMW 4.8L V-8: 360HP

Infiniti 4.5l V-8: 335HP

Audi 4.2L V-8: 335HP

Cadillac Northstar 4.6l V-8: 320HP

Mercedes-Benz 5.0L V-8: 302HP

Lexus 4.3l V-8: V-8 300HP

Jaguar 4.2L V-8: 294HP

[Robert Hall]

I'm constantly baffled by comments like this... The Northstar is not "underperforming". Direct competitors to the Northstar V8:

BMW 4.8L V-8: 360HP

Infiniti 4.5l V-8: 335HP

Audi 4.2L V-8: 335HP

Cadillac Northstar 4.6l V-8: 320HP

Mercedes-Benz 5.0L V-8: 302HP

Lexus 4.3l V-8: V-8 300HP

Jaguar 4.2L V-8: 294HP

171258[/snapback]

I don't get it either..the Northstar is quite competitive..

[pow]

I'm constantly baffled by comments like this... The Northstar is not "underperforming". Direct competitors to the Northstar V8:

BMW 4.8L V-8: 360HP

Infiniti 4.5l V-8: 335HP

Audi 4.2L V-8: 335HP

Cadillac Northstar 4.6l V-8: 320HP

Mercedes-Benz 5.0L V-8: 302HP

Lexus 4.3l V-8: V-8 300HP

Jaguar 4.2L V-8: 294HP

171258[/snapback]

Merc's new 5.5L 382 horsepower V8 replaces their 5.0L V8 for MY '07, and the Lexus V8 has been upped to 4.6 liters and 380 horsepower in the LS.

The RWD Northstar isn't class-leading, but it's still competitive. There's much more to a car than horsepower figures.

[bcs296]

Merc's new 5.5L 382 horsepower V8 replaces their 5.0L V8 for MY '07, and the Lexus V8 has been upped to 4.6 liters and 380 horsepower in the LS.

The RWD Northstar isn't class-leading, but it's still competitive. There's much more to a car than horsepower figures.

171335[/snapback]

Ok, so let's evaluate this again.

BMW 4.8: 360hp

Audi 4.2: 335/340hp

Infiniti 4.5: 335/340hp

Lexus 4.6: 380hp

Mercedes 5.5: 382hp

Jaguar: not even on the map

Looks like that 320hp quickly fell behind. Sure, numbers and on the road performance aren't always directly proportional, but tests have shown the STS isn't quite up there with BMW, Infiniti, and Mercedes. They are competitive right now, but it would be nice, for once, if GM wasn't the last one to catch on to the trend after the press rips them a new one.

Anyways -- the topic is about the CTS v6. With a whole new redesign of the CTS, why not take the perfect opportunity to put in a new class leading engine right off the bat that blows away the competition. Lexus did it. It's about time Caddy made EVERYTHING about a new car class leading, rather than making some stuff excellent and leaving other aspects mediocre.

With the car market the way it is right now, there are WAY too many incredibly nice cars out there to expect to make it with even a few shortcomings.

Edited July 26, 2006 by bcs296

[VenSeattle]

Merc's new 5.5L 382 horsepower V8 replaces their 5.0L V8 for MY '07, and the Lexus V8 has been upped to 4.6 liters and 380 horsepower in the LS.

171335[/snapback]

I'll concede to the upcoming E550, but the Northstar doesn't exist in a car that competes with the new LS. The STS directly competes against the GS. Let's see if GS gets the 4.6l for 2008 also.

Yes I'd like the Northstar V8 to be bumped up to 5.0 with more performance also. Perhaps when the DTS is remodeled onto Zeta or the ULS (unless they've become one and the same.)

As for the CTS's V6, I suspect it will get the DI 3.6l as well. Can't wait until we know for sure.

[Guest Josh]

New motor comes in '09. Expect minimal changes to the Northstar before then.

[autoeng]

My sources say the only addition for 2008 is the 3.6 with DI. 2009 gets the 6.2L, supercharged smallblock and 2010 gets a 3.0L DI and a 4.6L DI Northstar.

[CSpec]

My sources say the only addition for 2008 is the 3.6 with DI. 2009 gets the 6.2L, supercharged smallblock and 2010 gets a 3.0L DI and a 4.6L DI Northstar.

171623[/snapback]

This sounds highly probable. Do your sources have any info on other programs?

[Newbiewar]

lets hope Cadillac starts doing what the Z06 has done over the years...

GET the V-series that stomps the competition, and the regular one is adiqute, and after 2-4 years, merge the gap, then make the V-series that much better over the new V8 and so on...

look at where the Z06 has come from the LS1...

I'm not certain on years, but I know the northstar was around during the LS1's first days

1997 The LS1 rated at 325-350 hp

2002 The LS6 bumps to 405 Hp

1997 Deville Northstar is rated at 275 & 300 Hp

2002 Deville Northstar is rated at 300 Hp

2005 the LS2 rated at 400 Hp

2005 STS rated Northstar 320 Hp

2006 the LS7 rated at 505 Hp

The LS series has been updated... The LS series i guess has a bigger budget... but... still the Northstar is very antiquated, perhaps its been adiqute all along, but i think its time for it to be updated... put some LS7 technology in it...

the 4.4 Northstar is putting out 462-469 hp... I hope this technology soon gets input into the standard 4.6 Northstar

[91z4me]

lets hope Cadillac starts doing what the Z06 has done over the years...

GET the V-series that stomps the competition, and the regular one is adiqute, and after 2-4 years, merge the gap, then make the V-series that much better over the new V8 and so on...

look at where the Z06 has come from the LS1...

I'm not certain on years, but I know the northstar was around during the LS1's first days

1997 The LS1 rated at 325-350 hp

2002 The LS6 bumps to 405 Hp

1997 Deville Northstar is rated at 275 & 300 Hp

2002 Deville Northstar is rated at 300 Hp

2005 the LS2 rated at 400 Hp

2005 STS rated Northstar 320 Hp

2006 the LS7 rated at 505 Hp

The LS series has been updated... The LS series i guess has a bigger budget... but... still the Northstar is very antiquated, perhaps its been adiqute all along, but i think its time for it to be updated... put some LS7 technology in it...

the 4.4 Northstar is putting out 462-469 hp...  I hope this technology soon gets input into the standard 4.6 Northstar

171690[/snapback]

The RWD N* debuted in the XLR which was 2004. Also the 4.4 N* is supercharged and hand built, something we won't see as being standard on a $40K Caddy.

[CSpec]

I thought the limiting factor in the RWD Northstar was the torque capacity of the 5-speed auto...

[Drew Dowdell]

Merc's new 5.5L 382 horsepower V8 replaces their 5.0L V8 for MY '07, and the Lexus V8 has been upped to 4.6 liters and 380 horsepower in the LS.

The RWD Northstar isn't class-leading, but it's still competitive. There's much more to a car than horsepower figures.

171335[/snapback]

5.5 liters to make 382 HP in DOHC format?

GM does 400hp with a 5.7 litre pushrod.

Make a 5.5 litre Northstar and I'll guarentee it'll to better than the Merc.

[Drew Dowdell]

lthe 4.4 Northstar is putting out 462-469 hp...  I hope this technology soon gets input into the standard 4.6 Northstar

171690[/snapback]

the technology that the 4.4 has over the 4.6 is called a supercharger.

[loki]

My sources say the only addition for 2008 is the 3.6 with DI. 2009 gets the 6.2L, supercharged smallblock and 2010 gets a 3.0L DI and a 4.6L DI Northstar.

171623[/snapback]

guess the 3.6 would be ~ 300hp, and a 3.0L?...making..closer to 230?, while hopefully giving it some more tourque over the 2.8!

[Newbiewar]

anyone have a higher res version of those?

171691[/snapback]

5.5 liters to make 382 HP in DOHC format?

GM does 400hp with a 5.7 litre pushrod.

Make a 5.5 litre Northstar and I'll guarentee it'll to better than the Merc.

171702[/snapback]

its not a 5.7 L pushrod... its 6.0

the technology that the 4.4 has over the 4.6 is called a supercharger.

171704[/snapback]

the 4.4 is more advanced then just a supercharger...

[Drew Dowdell]

its not a 5.7 L pushrod... its 6.0

171721[/snapback]

sorry, I forgot they increased displacement for 2006.

2005 CTS-V had a 400hp 5.7 litre pushrod.

[Newbiewar]

sorry, I forgot they increased displacement for 2006.

2005 CTS-V had a 400hp 5.7 litre pushrod.

171727[/snapback]

really?

thats strange... the 2005 was LS1, LS2 or LS6?

[loki]

really?

thats strange... the 2005 was LS1, LS2 or LS6?

171729[/snapback]

have to be ls6... same as the pre ls7 z06

[Drew Dowdell]

but still, GM is making 400hp out of an "old tech" 5.7 litre while Merc is making 382hp out of a DOHC 5.5 litre.

I'm going to venture a reliable guess that the 5.5 is physically larger and also likely weighs more.

Pushrods r teh suxors!

but seriously, a 5.0 N* would probably run in the 380+ range no prob.

[Newbiewar]

but still, GM is making 400hp out of an "old tech" 5.7 litre while Merc is making 382hp out of a DOHC 5.5 litre.

I'm going to venture a reliable guess that the 5.5 is physically larger and also likely weighs more.

Pushrods r teh suxors!

but seriously, a 5.0 N* would probably run in the 380+ range no prob.

171752[/snapback]

but the northstar doesnt need to get bigger to be more power... in DOHC worlds...

displacement != power

it just needs to be updated... direct injection, I would say AFM but DOHC doesnt have lifters... there are also major advancements in heads cams fuel delivery exhaust intake, etc. in the last 10 years... the LS7 is a perfect example...

the Northstar was designed a little after the LT1 debuted...

so we've come so far on the pushrod end, but the DOHC GM hasnt made many improvements in the v8 form... the Ecotec has also been updated... but not the northstar

[toyoguy]

5.5 liters to make 382 HP in DOHC format?

GM does 400hp with a 5.7 litre pushrod.

Make a 5.5 litre Northstar and I'll guarentee it'll to better than the Merc.

171702[/snapback]

Mercedes makes 507hp w/6.3L

[Drew Dowdell]

Mercedes makes 507hp w/6.3L

172090[/snapback]

in with a hand built, by a single worker engine from AMG......

$49k new + $9800 + two weeks = 510hp 6.0 litre Cadillac CTS-V from Lingenfelter that is *still* less expensive than any stock AMG.

We also know that a naturally aspirated, 16valve pushrod 7.0 will do 505hp and fit in the same engine bay the 6.0 fits in.

[Newbiewar]

Mercedes makes 507hp w/6.3L

172090[/snapback]

also my friends 2003 SL55 is a 5.4 liter i believe, and it puts out 493 hp

[Northstar]

also my friends 2003 SL55 is a 5.4 liter i believe, and it puts out 493 hp

172130[/snapback]

But it's supercharged. A 5.4L supercharged Northstar would put out well over 493HP considering the 4.4L makes 469HP.

I don't think it really matters though. GM just needs to update the Northstar to keep it fresh.

[toyoguy]

in with a hand built, by a single worker engine from AMG......

$49k new + $9800 + two weeks = 510hp 6.0 litre Cadillac CTS-V from Lingenfelter that is *still* less expensive than any stock AMG.

We also know that a naturally aspirated, 16valve pushrod 7.0 will do 505hp and fit in the same engine bay the 6.0 fits in.

172095[/snapback]

you realize the LS7 is also "hand-built."

power and price don't mean much, there was quite a commotion about some twin turbo Heffner Ford GT, ran 10.X@145mph through the 1/4mi. Pics passed around nearly every automotive forum on the net.

owner traded it in for a Lambo Gallardo w/in 3weeks of delivery.

Edited July 27, 2006 by toyoguy

[balthazar]

There's no accounting for taste.

[bcs296]

With all of the technologies today, displacement of an engine simply doesn't matter. As is seen throughout this thread, ultra refined, high horsepower engines can be achieved through any number of different designs. Whether it be superchargers, turbochargers, overhead cams, pushrods, direct injection, Honda-like tweaking, tuning, and multiple cam lobes (VTEC), or a combination of these, the power can be made. In the end, it really doesn't matter all that much HOW GM decides to do it with the Caddies as long as they actually DO it and do it well.

I think the Northstar is an excellent engine and has been since its debut in 1993, but it is now 2007 and the engine has seen minimal changes in terms of performance. In 1993, the STS with the Northstar blew away every other car in its segment performance-wise. Even in 1997, it was still a performance leader. When 1998 came around, the GS400 was the performance king. Slowly and steadily since then the Northstar cars became dated as 5 and 6 speed autos came out along with higher horsepower.

Sure, today's STS is competitve.

But is there anyone else who would like to see an STS that flat out smokes the competition the way it did in 1993?

Edited July 28, 2006 by bcs296

[The O.C.]

5.5 liters to make 382 HP in DOHC format?

GM does 400hp with a 5.7 litre pushrod.

Make a 5.5 litre Northstar and I'll guarentee it'll to better than the Merc.

171702[/snapback]

GM does 400hp with a 6.0L pushrod....not a 5.7L.

The Benz motor is phenomenal.....I drove it in an S550.....and it's tangible benefits (versus the LS series motors) are a marked increase in refinement, smoothness, and energetic pull all the way from a stop to redline.

[Spike]

GM does 400hp with a 6.0L pushrod....not a 5.7L.

I think Olds was talking about the LS6 in the C5 ZO6 and 04-05 CTS-V.

[The O.C.]

As good as the LS-series motors are, the European V8s are beginning to surpass them in terms of smoothness, refinement, tractability over the whole rev range, with competitive power and fuel economy.

I've fallen in love with BMWs 4.4L valvetronic V8 and the new 4.8L is even more impressive.

Same thing about the Benz 5.5L. Even the "old" 5.0L/302hp engine was shocking how strong it was from a launch and how hard it pushed you into the seatback.

It's for these reasons I'd really like to see GM stay on TOP of the NorthStar program. The LS-series engines are great enough to deserve a dedicated place in GM's powertrain lineup....but GM also needs the keep the NorthStar-series engines world-class.

[The O.C.]

I think Olds was talking about the LS6 in the C5 ZO6 and 04-05 CTS-V.

172649[/snapback]

Yeah....I was late to this thread.....

[bcs296]

Just thought I would add that BMW is now selling the 3 series with a 300hp twin turbo I6.

Edited July 31, 2006 by bcs296

[jjsocrazy]

I have sources saying the 2.8L is going to be dropped in favor of the 3.6L 255 HP engine.

So the next high end engine will prob be close to or on 300HP, not too sure of the liters, maybe 3.9

[Drew Dowdell]

so we've come so far on the pushrod end, but the DOHC GM hasnt made many improvements in the v8 form... the Ecotec has also been updated... but not the northstar

171791[/snapback]

Actually the N* has been updated, just not in the way fanboys want it to be. The N* used to require premium, but for 2000 it was updated to provide the same amount of power on regular. The Northstar in a 2006 STS isn't the same as the Northstar in a 1993 Allante'.

[dado]

I think cadillac needs new DOHC v8 engine for sts, which can be upgraded to about 5-5.2 l, DI, and which can be turbocharged (or supercharged ) for v series with 520+ hp.

I'm not sure if northstar can fit in new cts but new ls3 or ls9 engine wouldn't be so bad .. it's probably lighter and more compact than northstar.

[bcs296]

Actually the N* has been updated, just not in the way fanboys want it to be. The N* used to require premium, but for 2000 it was updated to provide the same amount of power on regular. The Northstar in a 2006 STS isn't the same as the Northstar in a 1993 Allante'.

205403[/snapback]

Let's trace the changes of the Northstar.

Step 1. Bump from 295hp to 300hp.

Step 2. OBDI --> OBDII.

Step 3. Lowered compression allows it to run on regular.

Step 4. Coil on plug ignition.

Step 5. Rotate sideways.

Step 6. Add VVT.

It may not be the same as the Northstar in the 93 Allante, but OVER 13 YEARS, it's hardly changed.

Let's look at it this way:

In 1993, the Lexus LS400 has 250hp. Today, it's got 380. In 1993, the STS was making 295hp. Today, it's got 320.

This can be seen with Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Infiniti, etc. Their engines of today are COMPLETELY different from their 15 year old counterparts.

Someone has been resting on their laurels a little bit TOO much.

Edited October 16, 2006 by bcs296

[Northstar]

The RWD Northstar got 80% revised from the FWD one. How is that hardly new?

[bowtie_dude]

I'd like to see 255hp 3.6L standard the 300+hp direct-injected 3.6L as the upgrade.

[pow]

Z06 motor in the new CTS would be wicked. That competitive with AMG's new 6.3 (517 horsepower) and way more than the RS4's 4.2 (414 horsepower). An available automatic wouldn't be a bad idea... who cares about rowing gears when there's so much torque?

[Northstar]

I highly doubt we'll see the LS7 in the CTS-V, but it would be cool. First, it's very expensive, more so than a supercharged LSx, and second, it's not going to be around that much longer after the CTS-V debuts. An auto should be available this time around. I may have been able to convince my dad to buy one if I didn't have to get over the "it has a manual" problem.

[ToniCipriani]

you realize the LS7 is also "hand-built."

172271[/snapback]

But it has nothing to do with the CTS-V. The only car using the LS7 right now is the Z06.

The current CTS-V has the LS2 as a regular Corvette. LS7 is a 7.0 Liter engine.

You really have to learn to RTFP and not just blindly throw in random bashings.

[turbo200]

an SMG transmission with a clutchless manual mode would be ideal for the CTS V, as an option. if they really want to be considered amongst the upper ecehelon of luxury class they will need this technology and luxury for their customers. It only makes sense to offer the technology.

[dado]

does anybody know weight of northstar engine with superharger?.. i'm afraid that if GM put DOHC V8 engine in cts-v , car will not be able to keep up with M3,S4, amg in performace.

[Carguy]

If they can get 300HP out of the VVT DI 3.6L HFV6 then theoreticly they can get 360HP out of a LIKE TUNED VVT DI 4.6L HS V8. If they were to do this then they should offer the 300HP 3.6L V6 as the BASE ENGINE in the CTS with the 360HP 4.6L NS V8 as a NON V opt on that 5 series/E class sized car! Then have the STS go back to a V8 only model useing the 360HP NS V8 STANDARD! Then do a 500HP Super Charged STS V and a 450HP version of the same engine for the CTS V! The next CTS SHOULD HAVE THIS VVT DI tuned NS V8 AS AN OPTION! :wink:

Edited October 17, 2006 by Carguy

[pow]

an SMG transmission with a clutchless manual mode would be ideal for the CTS V, as an option. if they really want to be considered amongst the upper ecehelon of luxury class they will need this technology and luxury for their customers. It only makes sense to offer the technology.

205761[/snapback]

Something like a DSG would be even better.

[bcs296]

The RWD Northstar got 80% revised from the FWD one. How is that hardly new?

205564[/snapback]

And how much of that 80% revision actually made a damn bit of a difference for how it performs? 20hp? Please.

Edited November 6, 2006 by bcs296

[turbo200]

And how much of that 80% revision actually made a damn bit of a difference for how it performs? 20hp? Please.

212775[/snapback]

sing it sister!

[Northstar]

And how much of that 80% revision actually made a damn bit of a difference for how it performs? 20hp? Please.

212775[/snapback]

Fair enough, though we have found that the FWD Northstar only makes 292HP, and I've seen some mags state that they feel like the RWD Northstar has more than 320HP, so we may be looking at a 30-40HP gain.

When the RWD Northstar came out it was at or near the top of its class, it just so happens that GM has neglected to update it any further. Don't rag on the update for the FWD to RWD conversion because it was totally competitive, but you can rag on GM for not updating it for the past 3 or so years.